Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

[new guy]

Probably an unpopular opinion; cats and traps is an unhelpful distraction from developing the carriers

*heavy cats and traps*

[Jdam]

Probably an unpopular opinion; cats and traps is an unhelpful distraction from developing the carriers

I do agree, I would love to have two cats and traps carriers but we have been through the mill with these carriers, with defects, possibility of only getting one and other scares, now that we have 2 functional carriers and are on the other side, its time to concentrate on building up capability and making full use of what we have.

That said times might be a changing and who knows what we might have access to in a couple of years. F-35B is a quantum leap over the harrier, V-22's/V-280's exist as platforms to mount things and now we have drones starting to appear. Maybe soon there will be answers that don't require cats and traps to launch them.

[mrclark303]

Probably an unpopular opinion; cats and traps is an unhelpful distraction from developing the carriers

I do agree, I would love to have two cats and traps carriers but we have been through the mill with these carriers, with defects, possibility of only getting one and other scares, now that we have 2 functional carriers and are on the other side, its time to concentrate on building up capability and making full use of what we have.

That said times might be a changing and who knows what we might have access to in a couple of years. F-35B is a quantum leap over the harrier, V-22's/V-280's exist as platforms to mount things and now we have drones starting to appear. Maybe soon there will be answers that don't require cats and traps to launch them.

I think new generation UAV's, especially larger AAR/ AEW and strike drones are going to be a game changer, fitting the ships for operation with them will be a massive leap forward in capability.

So angled deck, with extension ( plus re ballast) and traps added.

Hopefully we can use the ramp to safely launch them.

A mixed Helo, UAV and F35B air group would be extremely capable.

[Jake1992]

Probably an unpopular opinion; cats and traps is an unhelpful distraction from developing the carriers

I do agree, I would love to have two cats and traps carriers but we have been through the mill with these carriers, with defects, possibility of only getting one and other scares, now that we have 2 functional carriers and are on the other side, its time to concentrate on building up capability and making full use of what we have.

That said times might be a changing and who knows what we might have access to in a couple of years. F-35B is a quantum leap over the harrier, V-22's/V-280's exist as platforms to mount things and now we have drones starting to appear. Maybe soon there will be answers that don't require cats and traps to launch them.

I think new generation UAV's, especially larger AAR/ AEW and strike drones are going to be a game changer, fitting the ships for operation with them will be a massive leap forward in capability.

So angled deck, with extension ( plus re ballast) and traps added.

Hopefully we can use the ramp to safely launch them.

A mixed Helo, UAV and F35B air group would be extremely capable.

This is why Iv often mentioned on here about the V-247 being perfect for us just look at the current options it gives let alone what will progress.

https://www.bellflight.com/products/bell-v-247

I believe the inglegence gathering version also performs AEW so would imo be a better option than Crowsnest from merlin

[Ian Hall]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/project ... nd-drones/

[new guy]

V-247 doesn't exist.

[wargame_insomniac]

Probably an unpopular opinion; cats and traps is an unhelpful distraction from developing the carriers

I do agree, I would love to have two cats and traps carriers but we have been through the mill with these carriers, with defects, possibility of only getting one and other scares, now that we have 2 functional carriers and are on the other side, its time to concentrate on building up capability and making full use of what we have.

That said times might be a changing and who knows what we might have access to in a couple of years. F-35B is a quantum leap over the harrier, V-22's/V-280's exist as platforms to mount things and now we have drones starting to appear. Maybe soon there will be answers that don't require cats and traps to launch them.

I think new generation UAV's, especially larger AAR/ AEW and strike drones are going to be a game changer, fitting the ships for operation with them will be a massive leap forward in capability.

So angled deck, with extension ( plus re ballast) and traps added.

Hopefully we can use the ramp to safely launch them.

A mixed Helo, UAV and F35B air group would be extremely capable.

This is why Iv often mentioned on here about the V-247 being perfect for us just look at the current options it gives let alone what will progress.

https://www.bellflight.com/products/bell-v-247

I believe the inglegence gathering version also performs AEW so would imo be a better option than Crowsnest from merlin

It would also release the Merlin Crowsnests back to their primary ASW role which would cetainly be very useful.

[shark bait]

This is why Iv often mentioned on here about the V-247 being perfect for us just look at the current options it gives let alone what will progress.

https://www.bellflight.com/products/bell-v-247

I believe the inglegence gathering version also performs AEW so would imo be a better option than Crowsnest from merlin

Agreed.

We've made our VTOL bed and should lie in it. Indeed we might be wise to look to take advantage of 50+ years experience at operating VTOL jets and see how to leverage and profit from it.

Bell is developing a second generation of tilt-rotors. I'd rather put my money on them than a half-hearted effort to resurrect CVA-01...

[bobp]

A few titbits from the Daily Mail online.....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... preys.html

[sol]

This is why Iv often mentioned on here about the V-247 being perfect for us just look at the current options it gives let alone what will progress.

V-247 does look as a nice solution for QE class, it shout also be able to operate from probably any other ship with big enough helipad in the RN and could be very useful for RM too. But as @new guy mentioned, it does not exist and it is still far from certain will it ever. Bell is still slowly developing it using its own money and it still does not have customer for it. Even if they find one it still would require time to fully develop it and than some more if that customer is not requiring naval version. Bell is hopping that USMC would be interested but there is nothing concrete so far. If USMC chose it, it might be a good news for RN and RM, but it would probably not happen any time soon. Till then MQ-9B STOL looks like the best option for the role.

[mrclark303]

A few titbits from the Daily Mail online.....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... preys.html

Unfortunately Bob, you lost me at Daily Mail...

For that matter Daily anything, newspapers are only good for weekend rattle can car paintwork....

[new guy]

This is why Iv often mentioned on here about the V-247 being perfect for us just look at the current options it gives let alone what will progress.

V-247 does look as a nice solution for QE class, it shout also be able to operate from probably any other ship with big enough helipad in the RN and could be very useful for RM too. But as @new guy mentioned, it does not exist and it is still far from certain will it ever. Bell is still slowly developing it using its own money and it still does not have customer for it. Even if they find one it still would require time to fully develop it and than some more if that customer is not requiring naval version. Bell is hopping that USMC would be interested but there is nothing concrete so far. If USMC chose it, it might be a good news for RN and RM, but it would probably not happen any time soon. Till then MQ-9B STOL looks like the best option for the role.

It certainly looks impressive, but in reality it's at least 15/ 20 years away from being an option.

I think an angled deck and traps are the way to go. A joint RAF/FAA developed carrier capable Ghost Bat is a no brainer.

It's a system already well down the development path and a buy of 100 would give us back mass.

Particularly in a future of 8 Squadrons of Tempest/ Thypoons and 3 Squadrons of F35B.

So 11 fighter squadrons and 100 shared loyal wingmen (also potentially used by AH64E) would give a huge shot in the arm.

From a purely safety angle, anything you have landing back on the carrier with forward momentum and mass, should land on an angled runway. You want a runaway drone going over the side, not straight down the centre line!

So, as we are now clearly moving away from helicopter / VTOL operations, i.e, stop and land, the necessary changes need to be made during the refit cycle.

The cost shouldn't be too horrendous, traps, deck edge extension and angled deck, plus's the required re ballasting.

Providing we stear clear of potentially problematic catapult mods, that's when it gets very expensive...

Such mods open the door to future capable AEW/ AAR drones, that would hugely increase the utility of the Carrier Air group.

An AEW asset that could orbit the carrier at 30,000 ft for 12 hours or more and be reconfigured to refuel an F35B strike package, pushing the F35B range to 600 plus miles would be transformative.

[Jake1992]

This is why Iv often mentioned on here about the V-247 being perfect for us just look at the current options it gives let alone what will progress.

V-247 does look as a nice solution for QE class, it shout also be able to operate from probably any other ship with big enough helipad in the RN and could be very useful for RM too. But as @new guy mentioned, it does not exist and it is still far from certain will it ever. Bell is still slowly developing it using its own money and it still does not have customer for it. Even if they find one it still would require time to fully develop it and than some more if that customer is not requiring naval version. Bell is hopping that USMC would be interested but there is nothing concrete so far. If USMC chose it, it might be a good news for RN and RM, but it would probably not happen any time soon. Till then MQ-9B STOL looks like the best option for the role.

It certainly looks impressive, but in reality it's at least 15/ 20 years away from being an option.

I think an angled deck and traps are the way to go. A joint RAF/FAA developed carrier capable Ghost Bat is a no brainer.

It's a system already well down the development path and a buy of 100 would give us back mass.

Particularly in a future of 8 Squadrons of Tempest/ Thypoons and 3 Squadrons of F35B.

So 11 fighter squadrons and 100 shared loyal wingmen (also potentially used by AH64E) would give a huge shot in the arm.

From a purely safety angle, anything you have landing back on the carrier with forward momentum and mass, should land on an angled runway. You want a runaway drone going over the side, not straight down the centre line!

So, as we are now clearly moving away from helicopter / VTOL operations, i.e, stop and land, the necessary changes need to be made during the refit cycle.

The cost shouldn't be too horrendous, traps, deck edge extension and angled deck, plus's the required re ballasting.

Providing we stear clear of potentially problematic catapult mods, that's when it gets very expensive...

Such mods open the door to future capable AEW/ AAR drones, that would hugely increase the utility of the Carrier Air group.

An AEW asset that could orbit the carrier at 30,000 ft for 12 hours or more and be reconfigured to refuel an F35B strike package, pushing the F35B range to 600 plus miles would be transformative.

You say 15 years yet the USMC have restart the V-247 project for their own fleet, with their backing and money I’d guess 2030 is more likely.

In regard to the AEW the V-247 can go up to 24,000ft with up to 11 hours on station, with out mead for chance to the carriers and can operate from any ship with a merlin flight deck / hanger it sounds like the better option to me.

[SKB]

Please stop requoting requotes. You typed three lines, yet your post produced a further 22 lines that take up website memory and page space.

[new guy]

Please stop requoting requotes. You typed three lines, yet your post produced a further 22 lines that take up website memory and page space.

If the moderators have a problem with it, they can say so.

[Jake1992]

Please stop requoting requotes. You typed three lines, yet your post produced a further 22 lines that take up website memory and page space.

Unless you’ve got something relevant to the descution plesee stop post a whinging comment and taking up space on the thread.

I see this quick a bit moaning over “quoting” others posts, who else are people to really know what someone in referencing in a thread of on going posts with out quoting the post they intend they’re comment to be to.

[new guy]

Please stop requoting requotes. You typed three lines, yet your post produced a further 22 lines that take up website memory and page space.

You won't catch me re-quoting posts, outrageous behaviour.....

[new guy]

This is why Iv often mentioned on here about the V-247 being perfect for us just look at the current options it gives let alone what will progress.

V-247 does look as a nice solution for QE class, it shout also be able to operate from probably any other ship with big enough helipad in the RN and could be very useful for RM too. But as @new guy mentioned, it does not exist and it is still far from certain will it ever. Bell is still slowly developing it using its own money and it still does not have customer for it. Even if they find one it still would require time to fully develop it and than some more if that customer is not requiring naval version. Bell is hopping that USMC would be interested but there is nothing concrete so far. If USMC chose it, it might be a good news for RN and RM, but it would probably not happen any time soon. Till then MQ-9B STOL looks like the best option for the role.

It certainly looks impressive, but in reality it's at least 15/ 20 years away from being an option.

I think an angled deck and traps are the way to go. A joint RAF/FAA developed carrier capable Ghost Bat is a no brainer.

It's a system already well down the development path and a buy of 100 would give us back mass.

Particularly in a future of 8 Squadrons of Tempest/ Thypoons and 3 Squadrons of F35B.

So 11 fighter squadrons and 100 shared loyal wingmen (also potentially used by AH64E) would give a huge shot in the arm.

From a purely safety angle, anything you have landing back on the carrier with forward momentum and mass, should land on an angled runway. You want a runaway drone going over the side, not straight down the centre line!

So, as we are now clearly moving away from helicopter / VTOL operations, i.e, stop and land, the necessary changes need to be made during the refit cycle.

The cost shouldn't be too horrendous, traps, deck edge extension and angled deck, plus's the required re ballasting.

Providing we stear clear of potentially problematic catapult mods, that's when it gets very expensive...

Such mods open the door to future capable AEW/ AAR drones, that would hugely increase the utility of the Carrier Air group.

An AEW asset that could orbit the carrier at 30,000 ft for 12 hours or more and be reconfigured to refuel an F35B strike package, pushing the F35B range to 600 plus miles would be transformative.

You say 15 years yet the USMC have restart the V-247 project for their own fleet, with their backing and money I’d guess 2030 is more likely.

In regard to the AEW the V-247 can go up to 24,000ft with up to 11 hours on station, with out mead for chance to the carriers and can operate from any ship with a merlin flight deck / hanger it sounds like the better option to me.

I think it's going to way beyond 3030 Jake, if it was currently flying as a prototype, then 2030, at an absolute squeeze.

It doesn't actually exist in the real world, so it's at least 15 years away from potential UK purchase, 20 would be more likely.

[sol]

You say 15 years yet the USMC have restart the V-247 project for their own fleet, with their backing and money I’d guess 2030 is more likely.

I am not sure where did you find that news, as far I can find, V-247 was not even selected by USMC and Bell is currently developing it using their own money so that it could offer it to USMC or some other customer. So guessing a date when V-247 might arrive could not easily be determined. If USMC or USN show interest and invest into it, it could speed development significantly but without that it would take long time if finished at all.

... V-247 can go up to 24,000ft with up to 11 hours on station ...

11 hours is probably with minimal payload, statsheet is giving ...

7 hours Time On Station with 600 lbs of Mission Payload at 300 nm Mission Radius

I am big fan of V-247 and IMO it would be a nice option for RN and RM. But it is still far from certain that it would ever arrive or be adopted by anyone and for UK to jump alone into development would be to expensive. Also even if built, if it take long time for it there might be something else on the marked that would be better and/or cheeper option. Developing navy based on some platform that might or might not enter service in the future without clear or even appropriate date of its arrival would not be a wise solution.

[Tempest414]

Unless the USMC take on V-247 then the only other way is for us to go in with say Australia , India , maybe Spain but not alone the Perfect outcome would be USMC , UK , Australia , India

[sol]

Unless the USMC take on V-247 then the only other way is for us to go in with say Australia , India , maybe Spain but not alone the Perfect outcome would be USMC , UK , Australia , India

Highly unlikely that any country outside US would invest into developing tiltrotor UAV. If Bell does not succeed to sell it to some of US service with significant order, it would be to expensive for any other country to both invest in development and then procurement in limited numbers.

[SKB]

(Forces News) 18th November 2023

The largest unmanned aircraft ever launched from a Royal Navy aircraft carrier has successfully taken off from HMS Prince of Wales.

The Mojave unmanned aircraft system is a modified version of the General Atomics MQ-1C Gray Eagle.

[Tempest414]

Unless the USMC take on V-247 then the only other way is for us to go in with say Australia , India , maybe Spain but not alone the Perfect outcome would be USMC , UK , Australia , India

Highly unlikely that any country outside US would invest into developing tiltrotor UAV. If Bell does not succeed to sell it to some of US service with significant order, it would be to expensive for any other country to both invest in development and then procurement in limited numbers.

I agree if the US don't buy it it is done and also think it would a far outside shot to get 2 or 3 other countries to come together as even if the UK , Aus and India came together the numbers would still be to small 250 tops

However if these 3 countries did come together it might make the USMC take a punt

[sol]

I agree if the US don't buy it it is done and also think it would a far outside shot to get 2 or 3 other countries to come together as even if the UK , Aus and India came together the numbers would still be to small 250 tops

However if these 3 countries did come together it might make the USMC take a punt

250 is waaaaaay more than those three countries need or would procure. Doubt those three countries would need more than 50 to 100 in the best case. Even with US involved it would still not be cheap, just look at Predator prices. RN and RM would probably not go for more than 20 to 30 for their needs, if even that many. Without US, this drone is probably dead.

[Tempest414]

I agree if the US don't buy it it is done and also think it would a far outside shot to get 2 or 3 other countries to come together as even if the UK , Aus and India came together the numbers would still be to small 250 tops

However if these 3 countries did come together it might make the USMC take a punt

250 is waaaaaay more than those three countries need or would procure. Doubt those three countries would need more than 50 to 100 in the best case. Even with US involved it would still not be cheap, just look at Predator prices. RN and RM would probably not go for more than 20 to 30 for their needs, if even that many. Without US, this drone is probably dead.

That is why I added tops