Australian Defence Force

[new guy]

1) T26 is also at 60 days

The T26 is a Destroyer sized Frigate.

Find another 138m Frigate with an endurance of more than 2 months.

If you want to prioritise endurance just keep making more space for stores within the hull or add more auxiliaries to the fleet. Set a requirement and stick to it. It’s not that complicated.

Immature response. I'm combating your logic and reasoning.

Not at all. If you want to know why BAE are doing things you need to ask BAE.

please, talk about other corvettes, then I will talk about other 'corvettes' (As you think the requirement is limited to). You are the one who has been exclusively talking about leander, I am merely responding to you.

No, I am suggesting that the RAN needs hull numbers to cover vast areas. To get the hull number and operate them successfully they need to be cheaper than £400m Frigates. The Leander part is unimportant.

A stretched Khareef to 117m in a Leander configuration would be a perfect blend of capability vs cost. With a bit more foresight the Australian OPV procurement could have been a single program with two batches comprised of 80m and 120m variants with differing levels of weapons and sensors but lots of commonality.

A missed opportunity perhaps.

4) I'm not saying that it replaces ANZAC, merely that AH140 would be future proof., unlike leander.

Why?

What can the AH140 do that a light Frigate can’t do? Adding 32x CAMM or ESSM plus 8x AShM in canisters is possible on most light Frigate sized vessels.

It’s entirely possible that a lighter Frigate with hybrid propulsion could be substantially quieter than the AH140. For all its merits the CODAD propulsion in the AH140 is not exactly quiet. Worth considering if Hunter numbers are getting cut.

The RAN have finite resources. The original plan was very ambitious and now it’s proving too costly. Asking a US Admiral to assess the wisdom of procuring British ASW Frigates instead of a mix of Hobart’s and SSN has unsurprisingly led to a predictable outcome.

The RAN need to work out their doctrine going forward. Perhaps AUKUS has changed minds on ASW which is fine but then something has to give.

Trying to construct Hunters, Hobart’s and A140’s concurrently whilst also setting up and progressing AUKUS is just too ambitious for a country the size of Australia IMO.

If it’s attempted the most likely end result is at least one deleted program or more likely, more ships built abroad.

Perhaps that’s why BAE is creating so much extra capacity in Govan.

1) T26 ain't a destroyer.
2) Go ask BAE
3) You just said your aren't exclusively talking about Leander, then you talk about nothing other than Leander.
4) Yes, let's not future-proof ships.
5) RAN aren't building and hobarts, and haven't for ages.
6) You have no guarantee that Leander will be cheaper than AH140, size does not equate to price, connotation vs reality, air is cheap and steel is free, e.c.t.
7) Yes, a unexisting design is less risky than a proven, 4 way adopted one.

[tomuk]

That is a completely incorrect characterisation of what Australia are doing or proposing to do.

How so?

Firstly because both the surface fleet report hasn't been published and the government hasn't even responded so the actual position isn't clear and secondly you've seem to of overlooked elements of the leaks\briefing\commentary that don't support your BAE Leander\corvette\OPV+\OPV view of the world.

[Poiuytrewq]

Firstly because both the surface fleet report hasn't been published and the government hasn't even responded so the actual position isn't clear and secondly you've seem to of overlooked elements of the leaks\briefing\commentary that don't support your BAE Leander\corvette\OPV+\OPV view of the world.

Which elements have I overlooked?

[abc123]

I wonder, the often mentioned 45 bln. cost for Hunter class, thats for whole life or just construction costs?

[Tempest414]

I would just point out that if AH-140 which is being built in the UK now for 268 million without Mk-41's would be 500 million to build in Auz then if we are saying building a 117 meter corvette based on Khareef class today would cost say 230 million ( BAE lost money on the Khareef program so would not want that again ) plus extra design work that would make it 450 or so when built in Auz yes or no

The best way to estimate that is to use the recent Navantia figures.

Navantia has offered 6x Alfa 3000 105m Corvettes for $3.6bn if constructed in Spain or £4.8bn if constructed in Australia. That puts Spain around 35% cheaper than Australia. Very similar to what you expect from a Cadiz vs Rosyth build.

So are you now saying that UK and Australian build cost are about the same

[Poiuytrewq]

So are you now saying that UK and Australian build cost are about the same

Simply that these are the most recent figures available.

Extrapolate away.

[Tempest414]

So are you now saying that UK and Australian build cost are about the same

Simply that these are the most recent figures available.

Extrapolate away.

No I want you to stop jumping from foot to foot

Spain are saying that if they build the ships offered it will cost 3.6 billion and if the ships are built in Auz it will cost 4.8 billion

You are then going on to say that it would be about the same for the UK

[Poiuytrewq]

So are you now saying that UK and Australian build cost are about the same

Simply that these are the most recent figures available.

Extrapolate away.

No I want you to stop jumping from foot to foot

Spain are saying that if they build the ships offered it will cost 3.6 billion and if the ships are built in Auz it will cost 4.8 billion

You are then going on to say that it would be about the same for the UK

Trying to compare shipbuilding costs between nations is virtually impossible. They are calculated in different ways with different priorities depending on the politics involved.

The simple facts are these.

• Australia only has so much money to spend. Time to prioritise.

• Long range light frigates built to OPV+ standards will be around 50% cheaper than a A140.

• Cancelling or drastically downgrading Hunter after cancelling the Attack class contract will not be a good look for Australia.

• Trying to replace the Hunter hull with Constellation, Hobart or FREMM will just cost even more money in the end.

• Australia needs to settle on a fleet mix and build it within whatever budget is available.

If Australia now wants its Frigates faster and cheaper then why not let Govan/Scotstoun help within an expanded AUKUS?

The alternative is that Navantia are going to offer a sticking plaster built in Spain anyway.

[SW1]

Long range light frigates built to OPV+ standards will be around 50% cheaper than a A140.

Is there any real world in service examples of this opv +, what this standard is, what is deleted compared to a proper frigate like the a140 and how or where it was built for around 150m pound?

[Tempest414]

So are you now saying that UK and Australian build cost are about the same

Simply that these are the most recent figures available.

Extrapolate away.

No I want you to stop jumping from foot to foot

Spain are saying that if they build the ships offered it will cost 3.6 billion and if the ships are built in Auz it will cost 4.8 billion

You are then going on to say that it would be about the same for the UK

Trying to compare shipbuilding costs between nations is virtually impossible. They are calculated in different ways with different priorities depending on the politics involved.

The simple facts are these.

• Australia only has so much money to spend. Time to prioritise.

• Long range light frigates built to OPV+ standards will be around 50% cheaper than a A140.

• Cancelling or drastically downgrading Hunter after cancelling the Attack class contract will not be a good look for Australia.

• Trying to replace the Hunter hull with Constellation, Hobart or FREMM will just cost even more money in the end.

• Australia needs to settle on a fleet mix and build it within whatever budget is available.

If Australia now wants its Frigates faster and cheaper then why not let Govan/Scotstoun help within an expanded AUKUS?

The alternative is that Navantia are going to offer a sticking plaster built in Spain anyway.

They have to be more real they need to down grade Hunter to a ASW frigate along the lines of T-26 and build 6 of them and then build 6 AH-140 this along with the Hobart's and LHD's will give them the blue water fleet they need next they need to replace there Patrol and MCM fleets = 8 ships with a new 90 or 100 meter MHPC

If they kept AH-140 simple i.e ported over the Radar , CMS , 127mm , 8 cell Mk-41 VLS from the Anzac's and fitted 2 x 40mm , 8 x NSM they could then latter add more Mk-41's if needed

[new guy]

Long range light frigates built to OPV+ standards will be around 50% cheaper than a A140.

I'm dubious that's a true statement, can you quote an example of a light frigate/OPV that is 50% cheaper, the A140/ T31 OPV has a range of approx. 9,000nm.

[Tempest414]

Long range light frigates built to OPV+ standards will be around 50% cheaper than a A140.

I'm dubious that's a true statement, can you quote an example of a light frigate/OPV that is 50% cheaper, the A140/ T31 OPV has a range of approx. 9,000nm.

No because I did not make this statement

[xav]

Australian Navy Force Structure Decisions Delayed Again

The future of the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) remains in flux with the government's response to an anticipated review delayed until next year.
...
It’s widely expected that the government’s response to the Independent Analysis of the RAN Surface Fleet will include cuts to, and the possible cancellation, of the Hunter class program to free up money and workforce for a “Tier 2” fleet of corvettes or light frigates.
...
Naval News understands that Babcock intends to offer its proven Arrowhead 140 design to the Royal Australian Navy should a “Tier 2” requirement eventuate.
...
Separately, BAE is understood to have submitted a proposal to the government wherein three of the planned Hunter class frigates would be completed as air warfare destroyers, with between 100 and 150 vertical launch system cells.

https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/in ... yed-again/

[new guy]

Long range light frigates built to OPV+ standards will be around 50% cheaper than a A140.

Is there any real world in service examples of this opv +, what this standard is, what is deleted compared to a proper frigate like the a140 and how or where it was built for around 150m pound?

He has no proof.

[Poiuytrewq]

Long range light frigates built to OPV+ standards will be around 50% cheaper than a A140.

Is there any real world in service examples of this opv +, what this standard is, what is deleted compared to a proper frigate like the a140 and how or where it was built for around 150m pound?

Lots of examples globally, most of which are described as Corvettes or light Frigates as not all OPV’s and Frigates are built to the same standards.

For example, is this an OPV, a OPV+, a Corvette or a Light Frigate?

https://vardmarine.com/gallery/vard-7-115/

Is this an OPV, a OPV+, a Corvette or a Light Frigate?

https://vardmarine.com/gallery/vard-7-125-ngopv/

This endurance figures are very impressive but I suspect that is for core crew only.

Could such vessels be built in the UK for around £200m to £250m?

Adjusted for inflation Babcock built the 3x Samuel Beckett class OPVs for around £250m adjusted for inflation.

https://vardmarine.com/gallery/vard-7-090/

The OPV, Corvette and Light Frigate designs are crossing over and the dividing lines are becoming blurred.

The cost is completely dependent on the requirement and specification.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Long range light frigates built to OPV+ standards will be around 50% cheaper than a A140.

Is there any real world in service examples of this opv +, what this standard is, what is deleted compared to a proper frigate like the a140 and how or where it was built for around 150m pound?

I'll try my best. A bit more "fighty" examples, which will be a good complement to Poiuytrewq-san's post.

Mexican navy POLA is a Damen 10514 design. (ref1)
2600t standard, 107.5x14.1m, 28knots top speed 5000nm range in 18knots (equivalent to 6000nm at 15knots (*1)), endurance is only 20 days. with crew of 122 (presumably including Helo-flight-team *2).
TACTICOS CMS with SMART-S radar, CAPTAS-2 sonar, 1x 57 mm, 4× Harpoon BlkII, 1x RAM, 8x ESSM, 2x triple AS-torpedo, with up-to NH90 helicopter.

Apart from endurance, it is very similar to T31, and even better in ASW, but less than a half in its size (which will mean more fuel efficient). Main generator is about a half the power of T31. Take off CAPTAS-2 and AS-tropedo, and add some cargo space, then it will be ~35 days or so. Of course, her range and endurance will NEVER reach that of T31. Endurance/range and stability are the prioriteis of T31, as a GP frigate for global patrol.

Also note that, T31 meets NATO frigate standard, while POLA meets Loyds OPV standard (sorry, just my memory, and could not find the ref. now).

About cost, 4 Damen 10514 for Romania for local build was proposed as 1.6 billion Euro on 2016 (equivalent to £1.3Bn). In comparison, program cost for 5 T31 was £2Bn on 2020, when proposed. So, "5 T31" is 1.5 times more costy than "4 Damen 10514". Of course, direct comparison of these build-cost is very very difficult, so it could be "5 T31 is 1 to 2 times more costy than 4 Damen 10514".

If you look at Brazilian Tamadare-class program, it is a bit larger and a bit cheaper. Of course, direct comparison of these build-cost is very very difficult.

*1: Note that River B2's range is 5000nm defined at 15 knots.

*2: T31 crew size WITHOUT flight crew is 100-110. I think its crew size if virtually the same.

ref1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Benit ... (POLA-101)

[NickC]

Long range light frigates built to OPV+ standards will be around 50% cheaper than a A140.

Is there any real world in service examples of this opv +, what this standard is, what is deleted compared to a proper frigate like the a140 and how or where it was built for around 150m pound?

I'll try my best. A bit more "fighty" examples, which will be a good complement to Poiuytrewq-san's post.

Mexican navy POLA is a Damen 10514 design. (ref1)
2600t standard, 107.5x14.1m, 28knots top speed 5000nm range in 18knots (equivalent to 6000nm at 15knots (*1)), endurance is only 20 days. with crew of 122 (presumably including Helo-flight-team *2).
TACTICOS CMS with SMART-S radar, CAPTAS-2 sonar, 1x 57 mm, 4× Harpoon BlkII, 1x RAM, 8x ESSM, 2x triple AS-torpedo, with up-to NH90 helicopter.

Apart from endurance, it is very similar to T31, and even better in ASW, but less than a half in its size (which will mean more fuel efficient). Main generator is about a half the power of T31. Take off CAPTAS-2 and AS-tropedo, and add some cargo space, then it will be ~35 days or so. Of course, her range and endurance will NEVER reach that of T31. Endurance/range and stability are the prioriteis of T31, as a GP frigate for global patrol.

Also note that, T31 meets NATO frigate standard, while POLA meets Loyds OPV standard (sorry, just my memory, and could not find the ref. now).

About cost, 4 Damen 10514 for Romania for local build was proposed as 1.6 billion Euro on 2016 (equivalent to £1.3Bn). In comparison, program cost for 5 T31 was £2Bn on 2020, when proposed. So, "5 T31" is 1.5 times more costy than "4 Damen 10514". Of course, direct comparison of these build-cost is very very difficult, so it could be "5 T31 is 1 to 2 times more costy than 4 Damen 10514".

If you look at Brazilian Tamadare-class program, it is a bit larger and a bit cheaper. Of course, direct comparison of these build-cost is very very difficult.

*1: Note that River B2's range is 5000nm defined at 15 knots.

*2: T31 crew size WITHOUT flight crew is 100-110. I think its crew size if virtually the same.

ref1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Benit ... (POLA-101)

FWIW my figues different to yours for the Damen 10514 Mexican navy POLA

Length overall 107 m
Beam Moulded (mld) 14 m
Draught (dwl) 3.7 m
Displacement (dwl) 2,365 tonnes
PERFORMANCE
Speed (Maximum power) 25+ knots
Range at 14 knots 5,000 NM with its 4 × Caterpillar 3406C TA generator sets rated at 350 kW each
Endurance 20 days at sea

Whereas Iver Huitfelft basis of the A140
Length o.a. 138.7 m
Beam, max. 19.8 m
Draft, design 5.8 m
Draught, max. 6.45 m
Displacement, design 5,452 tonnes
Displacement, max. 6,649 tonnes
Weapons and deadweight App. 1,200 tonnes
Speed, design draught 29.3 knots
Range, design draught 9,300 nm (18 knots, seastate 0)
Endurance 28 days at sea?

The spec was for long range frigate/OPV which don't think the Damen 10514 meets especially in the context of RAN requirement.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Long range light frigates built to OPV+ standards will be around 50% cheaper than a A140.

Is there any real world in service examples of this opv +, what this standard is, what is deleted compared to a proper frigate like the a140 and how or where it was built for around 150m pound?

I'll try my best. A bit more "fighty" examples, which will be a good complement to Poiuytrewq-san's post.

Mexican navy POLA is a Damen 10514 design. (ref1)
2600t standard, 107.5x14.1m, 28knots top speed 5000nm range in 18knots (equivalent to 6000nm at 15knots (*1)), endurance is only 20 days. with crew of 122 (presumably including Helo-flight-team *2).
TACTICOS CMS with SMART-S radar, CAPTAS-2 sonar, 1x 57 mm, 4× Harpoon BlkII, 1x RAM, 8x ESSM, 2x triple AS-torpedo, with up-to NH90 helicopter.

Apart from endurance, it is very similar to T31, and even better in ASW, but less than a half in its size (which will mean more fuel efficient). Main generator is about a half the power of T31. Take off CAPTAS-2 and AS-tropedo, and add some cargo space, then it will be ~35 days or so. Of course, her range and endurance will NEVER reach that of T31. Endurance/range and stability are the prioriteis of T31, as a GP frigate for global patrol.

Also note that, T31 meets NATO frigate standard, while POLA meets Loyds OPV standard (sorry, just my memory, and could not find the ref. now).

About cost, 4 Damen 10514 for Romania for local build was proposed as 1.6 billion Euro on 2016 (equivalent to £1.3Bn). In comparison, program cost for 5 T31 was £2Bn on 2020, when proposed. So, "5 T31" is 1.5 times more costy than "4 Damen 10514". Of course, direct comparison of these build-cost is very very difficult, so it could be "5 T31 is 1 to 2 times more costy than 4 Damen 10514".

If you look at Brazilian Tamadare-class program, it is a bit larger and a bit cheaper. Of course, direct comparison of these build-cost is very very difficult.

*1: Note that River B2's range is 5000nm defined at 15 knots.

*2: T31 crew size WITHOUT flight crew is 100-110. I think its crew size if virtually the same.

ref1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Benit ... (POLA-101)

FWIW my figues different to yours for the Damen 10514 Mexican navy POLA

Length overall 107 m
Beam Moulded (mld) 14 m
Draught (dwl) 3.7 m
Displacement (dwl) 2,365 tonnes
PERFORMANCE
Speed (Maximum power) 25+ knots
Range at 14 knots 5,000 NM with its 4 × Caterpillar 3406C TA generator sets rated at 350 kW each
Endurance 20 days at sea

Whereas Iver Huitfelft basis of the A140
Length o.a. 138.7 m
Beam, max. 19.8 m
Draft, design 5.8 m
Draught, max. 6.45 m
Displacement, design 5,452 tonnes
Displacement, max. 6,649 tonnes
Weapons and deadweight App. 1,200 tonnes
Speed, design draught 29.3 knots
Range, design draught 9,300 nm (18 knots, seastate 0)
Endurance 28 days at sea?

The spec was for long range frigate/OPV which don't think the Damen 10514 meets especially in the context of RAN requirement.

Thanks, not arguing against T31 has a longer range. Just saying, Damen 10514's range is comparable to that of T42, while the endurance is much less. If we add endurance (by cutting something, like CAPTAS-2), it will be longer.

- In endurance and range, surely T31 is much better than Damen 10514. No doubt.
- Future evolution = vacant space is also larger in T31 (can even carry 32-cell Mk.41 VLS).
- But, "endurance and range" cost. Size costs and size also make fuel cost. So, in cost term, Damen 10514 is surely better than T31.
- In equipment term, Damen 10514 POLA is better armed than T31 "as is" (not talking about 32-cell Mk.41 VLS, which is yet to be budgeted in RN).
- Crew size is the same
- Purchase cost is not easy to compare, but apparently Damen 10514 is cheaper than T31, as expected. (how much cheaper is not clear)

So, it is not T31's one-side game. Just a matter of trade-off.

Which do I think is better for RAN? I think T31 is.
But, of course with less number of hulls than in the case of Heavy Corvettes. So, if the number is the key, selecting Heavy Corvettes will be the better answer.

[new guy]

T31 has ~60 days endurance, same as T26.

[Caribbean]

Long range light frigates built to OPV+ standards will be around 50% cheaper than a A140.

Is there any real world in service examples of this opv +, what this standard is, what is deleted compared to a proper frigate like the a140 and how or where it was built for around 150m pound?

Lots of examples globally, most of which are described as Corvettes or light Frigates as not all OPV’s and Frigates are built to the same standards.

For example, is this an OPV, a OPV+, a Corvette or a Light Frigate?

https://vardmarine.com/gallery/vard-7-115/

Is this an OPV, a OPV+, a Corvette or a Light Frigate?

https://vardmarine.com/gallery/vard-7-125-ngopv/

This endurance figures are very impressive but I suspect that is for core crew only.

Could such vessels be built in the UK for around £200m to £250m?

Adjusted for inflation Babcock built the 3x Samuel Beckett class OPVs for around £250m adjusted for inflation.

https://vardmarine.com/gallery/vard-7-090/

The OPV, Corvette and Light Frigate designs are crossing over and the dividing lines are becoming blurred.

The cost is completely dependent on the requirement and specification.

I suspect the T32 will not be unlike teh Vard 7 115 or 125

[serge750]

Could that mean the oZ gov might build ( to get the experience & skillset ) for example 4 or 5 T31 then when their "Hunter" design is finalised build the complex/expensives ships later ?

[SW1]

Long range light frigates built to OPV+ standards will be around 50% cheaper than a A140.

Is there any real world in service examples of this opv +, what this standard is, what is deleted compared to a proper frigate like the a140 and how or where it was built for around 150m pound?

Lots of examples globally, most of which are described as Corvettes or light Frigates as not all OPV’s and Frigates are built to the same standards.

For example, is this an OPV, a OPV+, a Corvette or a Light Frigate?

https://vardmarine.com/gallery/vard-7-115/

Is this an OPV, a OPV+, a Corvette or a Light Frigate?

https://vardmarine.com/gallery/vard-7-125-ngopv/

This endurance figures are very impressive but I suspect that is for core crew only.

Could such vessels be built in the UK for around £200m to £250m?

Adjusted for inflation Babcock built the 3x Samuel Beckett class OPVs for around £250m adjusted for inflation.

https://vardmarine.com/gallery/vard-7-090/

The OPV, Corvette and Light Frigate designs are crossing over and the dividing lines are becoming blurred.

The cost is completely dependent on the requirement and specification.

Are any of these actually built or production ready or just a sales brochure concept? As I said what is left out to get the cost of the design dwn by 50% from the a140?

The Samuel Beckett doesn’t have a helicopter capacity are we or even Australia really wanting vessels that can’t embark helicopters.

The closest vessel configuration to what your after that actually exists in a roughly comparable market is the Italian ppa and they are not cheap.

[SW1]

Long range light frigates built to OPV+ standards will be around 50% cheaper than a A140.

Is there any real world in service examples of this opv +, what this standard is, what is deleted compared to a proper frigate like the a140 and how or where it was built for around 150m pound?

I'll try my best. A bit more "fighty" examples, which will be a good complement to Poiuytrewq-san's post.

Mexican navy POLA is a Damen 10514 design. (ref1)
2600t standard, 107.5x14.1m, 28knots top speed 5000nm range in 18knots (equivalent to 6000nm at 15knots (*1)), endurance is only 20 days. with crew of 122 (presumably including Helo-flight-team *2).
TACTICOS CMS with SMART-S radar, CAPTAS-2 sonar, 1x 57 mm, 4× Harpoon BlkII, 1x RAM, 8x ESSM, 2x triple AS-torpedo, with up-to NH90 helicopter.

Apart from endurance, it is very similar to T31, and even better in ASW, but less than a half in its size (which will mean more fuel efficient). Main generator is about a half the power of T31. Take off CAPTAS-2 and AS-tropedo, and add some cargo space, then it will be ~35 days or so. Of course, her range and endurance will NEVER reach that of T31. Endurance/range and stability are the prioriteis of T31, as a GP frigate for global patrol.

Also note that, T31 meets NATO frigate standard, while POLA meets Loyds OPV standard (sorry, just my memory, and could not find the ref. now).

About cost, 4 Damen 10514 for Romania for local build was proposed as 1.6 billion Euro on 2016 (equivalent to £1.3Bn). In comparison, program cost for 5 T31 was £2Bn on 2020, when proposed. So, "5 T31" is 1.5 times more costy than "4 Damen 10514". Of course, direct comparison of these build-cost is very very difficult, so it could be "5 T31 is 1 to 2 times more costy than 4 Damen 10514".

If you look at Brazilian Tamadare-class program, it is a bit larger and a bit cheaper. Of course, direct comparison of these build-cost is very very difficult.

*1: Note that River B2's range is 5000nm defined at 15 knots.

*2: T31 crew size WITHOUT flight crew is 100-110. I think its crew size if virtually the same.

ref1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Benit ... (POLA-101)

So they don’t meet warship standards and can’t persist as much. Given your looking at transiting long distances and to be used or a least come up against a peer enemy seems like a problem.

Building frigates will power constraints hasn’t worked to well for the RN this last 15 years maybe we shouldn’t be repeating that.

[Poiuytrewq]

Are any of these actually built or production ready or just a sales brochure concept? As I said what is left out to get the cost of the design dwn by 50% from the a140?

The Samuel Beckett doesn’t have a helicopter capacity are we or even Australia really wanting vessels that can’t embark helicopters.

The closest vessel configuration to what your after that actually exists in a roughly comparable market is the Italian ppa and they are not cheap.

Its for Australian to decide. A Vard OPV configured as a light Frigate is never going to be a Hunter, Constellation, FREMM or T26 but it has a use up to a point.

The RAN cannot afford endless Frigates especially if insisting on the 22carat everywhere so if hull numbers are important then they will have to be cheaper and less capable. That shouldn’t be controversial, it’s just common sense.

Current planning has the RAN putting 3 or 4 Frigates at sea at any one time. Is that enough? Looks a bit light to me.

Cutting hulls 7,8 and 9 in the Hunter program isn’t really going to help unless the drumbeat is slowed also. That would increase the cost of each Hunter but it might also produce a A140 every couple of years. The penalties inside the Hunter contract could be potentially huge so perhaps little would be saved.

The most pragmatic decision may be to just carry on as planned and insist BAE sorts out the problems.

[Poiuytrewq]

I suspect the T32 will not be unlike teh Vard 7 115 or 125

How do you see them fitting in?

The Vard7 313 looks like a better fit for RN IMO but a class of more capable OPVs is definitely required when the RB2’s decommission around 2028.

Perhaps Damen will surprise us all with a UK optimised compact crossover as part of the Dutch joint effort.