Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

[Repulse]

A third flat-top would come in handy wouldn’t it.

Not as useful as 3x LHDs and a handful of escorts for the same price.

An LPH would be cheaper than a LHD, even a converted tanker with a flat-top could give significant capability. Not going down the rabbit hole of talking about amphibious ships on the thread, only that it’s not required for what we are talking about.

[topman]

I wonder what the payload is at 500 m range?

I've not read up on this but assume it's a loan for a trial. I assume it's likely for things like one small but important spare part that's at a civilian airport and then flown back to the boat.

I'd say there's as many regulatory issues as technical but everything starts somewhere.

[SW1]

We seem to have becoming overexcited PR about rather trivial steps these days.

When Mojave is shown to safely operate from the CVFs it will be far from trivial it will be revolutionary.

What has future experiments with mojave got to do with the publicity around this a/c landing?.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Sea Guardian UAV operates SeaSpray 7500E V2 AESA radar.

Can this radar be modified to cover low-altitude AEW tasking? If so, can STOL version of Sea Guadian UAV be a candidate for AEW asset to replace Merlin AEW Crowsnest? It has air surveilance mode, of course shall be limited. But, this direction has some possibility?

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... onto-mq-9/

[Caribbean]

What has future experiments with mojave got to do with the publicity around this a/c landing?.

I think that demonstrating what is possible NOW, with off-the-shelf commercial products is very valuable.

If nothing else, it redefines the "possible", contradicting the best efforts of nay-sayers to stop the future happening.

[SW1]

What has future experiments with mojave got to do with the publicity around this a/c landing?.

I think that demonstrating what is possible NOW, with off-the-shelf commercial products is very valuable.

If nothing else, it redefines the "possible", contradicting the best efforts of nay-sayers to stop the future happening.

X47b landed on an aircraft carrier 10 years go, the us marines and navy have been moving stores between locations using unmanned a/c for a least the same amount of time with kmax. They have been deploying sensors on unmanned systems using firescout for years as well.

We have supplied cargo carrying drones to Ukraine with Malloy t400 and shortly t650.

None of this is new or proving nay sayers wrong it’s been going on for years now are we just suddenly realising it?

If you want to talk about putting serious sensor or payloads on a/c on a ship and the systems to do it fine but this instalment is hardly some great revolution worthy of all the pr crap.

[Repulse]

Isn’t it great then at last we are doing these things then? Apart from the PR tbh I’m not sure what you are disagreeing with?

[SW1]

Isn’t it great then at last we are doing these things then? Apart from the PR tbh I’m not sure what you are disagreeing with?

Which is basically what I said at the beginning not sure what all the excitement is about. And a question about how this moves stuff around a task group when there is already option in use that could do that.

If you want a PR blitz do it when you have a practical solution for the role contracted.

[Ian Hall]

[Caribbean]

The X47b, Firescout or kMax are hardly good examples of "off-the-shelf commercial". None of those systems were fully autonomous, either, they are best described as semi-autonomous RPAS. Thanks for giving a number of non-UK relevant examples, though.

We have also been trialling and using ship-borne drones, for many years, going all the way back to the WW2 Queen Bee

The recent flight is claimed to have been fully autonomous, both on the outward and inward legs. That IS a significant difference to previous trials. It was also specifically for a cargo drone, not AEW or ASW drone. Those are planned for later this year onwards. As are trials for the big-ticket items.

We could, of course, have spent the last 10 years replicating US experimentation, OR we could have taken the approach of waiting until the technology matured to the point of becoming commercialy available, at minimal cost to ourselves.

Not a lot of point in testing carrier-borne drones when we didn't have any carriers to fly them off, is there? We have instead looked at systems suitable for deployment from escorts and OPVs, both rotary & fixed-wing (none of which seem to have lived up to their hype) ), as well as investigating a larger autonomous rotary capability using the SW-4 Solo (again, aimed at escorts & OPVs)

The delay has, accidentally, also allowed events in Ukraine to demonstrate that developing only exquisite & expensive, high-end drones is a huge mistake, with average life-expectancy of a re-usable drone in Ukraine said to be around 10-15 flights (that includes Bayraktars at the top end). Our experimentation with lower-cost civilian-based designs has proven to be sensible

Civilian manufacturers have commoditised what was entirely military only a few years ago. This process is accelerating. Drones with increasing levels of autonomy are becoming cheaper and cheaper. Costs now are at least an order of magnitude less than 20 years ago, possibly more.

[Timmymagic]

I wonder what the payload is at 500 m range?

I've not read up on this but assume it's a loan for a trial. I assume it's likely for things like one small but important spare part that's at a civilian airport and then flown back to the boat.

I'd say there's as many regulatory issues as technical but everything starts somewhere.

It's a loaner. US studies showed that 90% of urgent items moved on COD were well under 100kg. Suspect the RN have been watching the trials that this drone has done flying over to the Isle of Wight delivering medicines etc for a number of years. CAA has been closely involved with the trials which appear to have gone off without a hitch.

[Poiuytrewq]

…the trials which appear to have gone off without a hitch.

Lets hope the Mojave trails do the same.

[topman]

I wonder what the payload is at 500 m range?

I've not read up on this but assume it's a loan for a trial. I assume it's likely for things like one small but important spare part that's at a civilian airport and then flown back to the boat.

I'd say there's as many regulatory issues as technical but everything starts somewhere.

It's a loaner. US studies showed that 90% of urgent items moved on COD were well under 100kg. Suspect the RN have been watching the trials that this drone has done flying over to the Isle of Wight delivering medicines etc for a number of years. CAA has been closely involved with the trials which appear to have gone off without a hitch.

A loan makes sense if it's more of concept.

Sticky bit might the collection from a civilian airport (which it most likely will be) as i think this needs a pilot for landing and taking off.
But who knows where this sort of thing will be in 10 years.

[Timmymagic]

A loan makes sense if it's more of concept.

Sticky bit might the collection from a civilian airport (which it most likely will be) as i think this needs a pilot for landing and taking off.
But who knows where this sort of thing will be in 10 years.

There's also this thing coming very soon for trials as well...

https://www.animal-dynamics.com/blogs-n ... c-phase-2/

[Timmymagic]

The delay has, accidentally, also allowed events in Ukraine to demonstrate that developing only exquisite & expensive, high-end drones is a huge mistake, with average life-expectancy of a re-usable drone in Ukraine said to be around 10-15 flights (that includes Bayraktars at the top end). Our experimentation with lower-cost civilian-based designs has proven to be sensible

I think its worth noting that the figures on losses include civilian quadcopters that are operated in a far more risky way than you would a platform with a stand off sensor for example. Including grenade dropping drones directly over Russian lines with heavy EW, unhardened comms...whilst we always need to be aware of attrition, particularly at the lower end (and there is a real case for the likes of DJI quadcopters there), its not going to be an issue for a maritime logistics drone. The advantage of the civilian developments there is scale. RN seems to be being very sensible in that regard.

[SKB]

QE sails from Portsmouth (8th September 2023)

(Whisper Transport) 8th September 2023
Horn: 11:15 (loud!)


(Navy Lookout) 10th September 2023


Fixed-wing pilotless supply aircraft lands on HMS Prince of Wales

(Navy Lookout/Royal Navy/W Autonomous Systems) 8th September 2023

In a pioneering flight, a cargo drone flew from Predannack airfield on the Lizard Peninsula out to HMS Prince of Wales off the Cornish coast, delivered supplies, took off again and flew back.

The goal is to utilise this type of drone to transfer stores and supplies such as mail or spare parts from ashore or between ships without the need to use much more expensive helicopters.

The twin-engine light alloy twin-boom UAS made by W Autonomous Systems (WAS) is capable of carrying a payload of 100kg up to 1,000 km. It can operate from rough strips and needs less than half the length of the carrier's flight deck to get airborne.

https://wautonomoussystems.org/drones/

[Caribbean]

I think its worth noting that the figures on losses include civilian quadcopters that are operated in a far more risky way than you would a platform with a stand off sensor for example.

Yes - fair point. However, I think that it is significant that this figure can also be applied to Ukraine's "top-end" Bayraktars as well as the DJI Maviks etc. The more sophisticated the drone, the more sophisticated the counter to it.

whilst we always need to be aware of attrition, particularly at the lower end ........ its not going to be an issue for a maritime logistics drone.

The use of DJI drones as combat systems is certainly an extreme case, to say the least, but informative for future planning. There's no point in giving a battalion ten $100k surveillance drones when a $5000 Mavic 3 can do 80% of the job & you can buy 200 for the same money. Shorter range? Buy extra battery packs & fly multiple drones at the same time. The Mavic also won't require a multi-million dollar maintenance contract - if it stops working, consign it to the parts bin

Attrition for naval drones is certainly going to be for different reasons, but we seem to size fleets on the assumption that we will always be using them in peacetime conditions, where a flight won't be made if conditions are marginal, say, whereas the same flight in wartime might well have to be made for operational reasons, with the possibility that a drone will be lost.

[new guy]

I think its worth noting that the figures on losses include civilian quadcopters that are operated in a far more risky way than you would a platform with a stand off sensor for example.

Yes - fair point. However, I think that it is significant that this figure can also be applied to Ukraine's "top-end" Bayraktars as well as the DJI Maviks etc. The more sophisticated the drone, the more sophisticated the counter to it.

whilst we always need to be aware of attrition, particularly at the lower end ........ its not going to be an issue for a maritime logistics drone.

The use of DJI drones as combat systems is certainly an extreme case, to say the least, but informative for future planning. There's no point in giving a battalion ten $100k surveillance drones when a $5000 Mavic 3 can do 80% of the job & you can buy 200 for the same money. Shorter range? Buy extra battery packs & fly multiple drones at the same time. The Mavic also won't require a multi-million dollar maintenance contract - if it stops working, consign it to the parts bin

Attrition for naval drones is certainly going to be for different reasons, but we seem to size fleets on the assumption that we will always be using them in peacetime conditions, where a flight won't be made if conditions are marginal, say, whereas the same flight in wartime might well have to be made for operational reasons, with the possibility that a drone will be lost.

' Why watchkeeper should be under £1m and not above £10m'

[Poiuytrewq]

Great stuff again from NavyLookout

https://www.navylookout.com/2023-carrie ... nt-begins/

It’s a pretty modest CSG with 8x F35, 5x Merlin and 3x Wildcat AH1 a couple of escorts, a single Tide and no SSS.

Looks like CSG25 will finally be the scale that everyone is waiting for.

IMO the most interesting thing this year will be the see if RN can get CSG23, PWLS and LRG(S) operating at sea concurrently.

Considering the current state of affairs that will be quite an achievement if possible.

[Jdam]

Two of the five 820 NAS cabs will be Crowsnest aircraft for Airborne Surveillance and Control. Crowsnest finally achieved its much-delayed Initial Operating Capability (IOC) in July this year. The radar picture and tactical data from the aircraft can now be shared with the strike group via Link 16. In July tentative steps were also made using Crowsnest for fighter-control of F-35s during a couple of sorties and this will be developed further during CSG23

Did we know this?

[SW1]

Great stuff again from NavyLookout

https://www.navylookout.com/2023-carrie ... nt-begins/

It’s a pretty modest CSG with 8x F35, 5x Merlin and 3x Wildcat AH1 a couple of escorts, a single Tide and no SSS.

Looks like CSG25 will finally be the scale that everyone is waiting for.

IMO the most interesting thing this year will be the see if RN can get CSG23, PWLS and LRG(S) operating at sea concurrently.

Considering the current state of affairs that will be quite an achievement if possible.

This time next year Rodney we’ll be millionaires…

[Poiuytrewq]

This time next year Rodney we’ll be millionaires…

O ye of little faith.

[SKB]

Forces News says QE's embarking 8x F-35B's this week during her 3 month deployment.

(Forces News) 11th September 2023

The warship, which is equipped with state-of-the-art weaponry and communications systems, set sail (8th September) from Portsmouth Naval Base on to the Norwegian and North Seas to lead a Carrier Strike Group.

HMS Queen Elizabeth, which is the flagship of the Royal Navy, will lead a carrier group for the fourth time in the last four years.

[bobp]

Jets join Ship....
https://x.com/NavyLookout/status/170121 ... 14699?s=20

[Digger22]

Our F35 pilots are starved of actual Carrier flying hours. We could and should put 20 jets on her. We're stuck in an endless Training rotation due to little Carrier experience.