Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

[new guy]

Blimey ! is that endurance correct....

Yes. Why corvettes don't work for the UK or RAN

[Ian Hall]

For those advocating corvettes the Type 12 (inc Leander's) experience is instructive. At some 2,200 to 2,800 tons they only managed to field a limited primary weapons system per ship (4.5" gun, Ikara, or Exocet) and although often considered a workhorse they could equally be seen as one trick ponies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leander-class_frigate

Whether one wants to build corvettes this size, or feel one can simply uparm an OPV, the reality of engineering design is that something has to give (be that range/endurance, battle damage tolerance/ stability, accommodation standards, having enough space for future refitting etc.).

[wargame_insomniac]

The fact that systems cost the money should factor also in the discussions around the T31 v T26 discussions.

However putting that aside, balanced navies have always been the answer and this polarised debate from both angles is tiresome. Each ship type has its place even now, it’s all about requirements and priorities. Corvettes work for Germany as they are focused to operate in the Baltics to achieve sea control - larger ships just aren’t required and would be limited in the Littoral areas they can operate in.

In regard to the Royal Navy, in WW2 Corvettes and Sloops made up @ 50% of the surface fleet with @ 350 in service - they were quick to build and could be built in multiple yards. They were also simpler for crews to be trained in and did an invaluable role of escorting convoys and patrolling, as well as supporting offensive operations.

If war happened today, how many T26/T31s could realistically be rushed into service versus say an upgraded River? This should factor into people’s thinking rather than just ignorantly writing things off to fit their particular bias.

[Repulse]

For those advocating corvettes the Type 12 (inc Leander's) experience is instructive. At some 2,200 to 2,800 tons they only managed to field a limited primary weapons system per ship (4.5" gun, Ikara, or Exocet) and although often considered a workhorse they could equally be seen as one trick ponies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leander-class_frigate

Whether one wants to build corvettes this size, or feel one can simply uparm an OPV, the reality of engineering design is that something has to give (be that range/endurance, battle damage tolerance/ stability, accommodation standards, having enough space for future refitting etc.).

Agree something has to give, but doesn’t mean they do not have a valuable role to play if it’s done with honesty and with your eyes open.

One point I would also make however is it is a sliding scale, modest upgrades to the B2s now to make them inline with say the USCG Cutters (e.g. Radar and gun) would be correcting a historic bias that should never of happened.

[new guy]

bow looking shiny

[Digger22]

As much as I loved the old Leander's, modern avionics and systems are far more compact and lighter. Therefore for a given displacement I would expect far more bang per tonne than a Leander could ever deliver. The only reason T31 is a little short on bite, is Price, not displacement.

[wargame_insomniac]

I have been critical of several of the RN ships being either overly large for their armanent & equipment or under-armed / equipped for their size, depending on which way you look at it, including both T31 and RB2s.

Yes I understand impact of extra size on sea keeping, and allowing space for future upgrades, and also for crew comfort which no doubt plays a part in crew retention which is getting increasingly critical for RN. But in an ideal world I wouldn't have wanted either the T31s and RB2s but something in between.

With the benefits of time travel, my ideal world fantasy fleet wouldn't have ordered RB2s (although in real life I totally understand why and when they were ordered, so you don't need to remind me again).

But ideally I would have wanted a light patrol frigate, between 4,000t and 5,000t, big enough to include helicopter hangar and flight deck. Armanent would have been basic with one main and couple of secondary guns (not fussed on exact calibre but something in between T31 and RB2 would have been fine), light missile loadout of maybe 12 CAMM and decent radar / sonar.

This would clearly not be frontline warship but one designed to do the low intensity patrol work for BIOT's and global Sea Lanes of Control. The idea is that they are simpler, cheaper, requiring less crew, and allow the bulk of RN's limited resources and budget to be spent on the Tier One high intensity warfighting escorts.

Ideally would call them Light Frigate or Patrol Frigate, but politicians being stupid, I wouldn't want them being sent into situations that require a proper warship. I don't care if they were called something like Sloop or even the dreaded C-word (Corvette) to distinguish them from proper Frigates.

BUT I don't have time machine and we can't have fantasy fleets starting with blank sheet of paper. That means using both RB2s and T31s and, given current Budget constraints, need some limited modest upgrades so that they can contribute more.

So would be happy uf RB2s got very modest upgrades so that they can do more of patrolling and anti-piracy missions, so better radar, small upgunning and basic UAVs.

The T31s I would dpend a bit more on so that they can do wider variety of frigate missions. So sonar, an increase in either CAMM or Mk41 VLS, and 8*NSM containers.

But for both I accept that tipping point beyond which the upgrades start limiting what made them useful in first place? either purchase cost, annual maintenance or impact on either number of days at sea or crew requirements.

[wargame_insomniac]

Another factor to consider is export sales. Both T26 and T31 have two overseas buyers apiece and all of them are able to afford to insist on local building (with Australia, Canada, Indonesia and Poland respectively). Note leaving aside Ukraine as unclear on their naval wants until fighting stops).

If we had a smaller, lighter, cheaper frigate available, this would be affordable by more navies worldwide, some of whom are going to have the local shipbuilding industry sufficient to build their own ships but hopefully enough nations would be interested in buying British made, which would help raise the Uk's shipbuilding profile in a positive way.

[Poiuytrewq]

bow looking shiny

bow looks sonarless…

[new guy]

bow looking shiny

bow looks sonarless…

why was it painted already unlike the other blocks? you never know

[Poiuytrewq]

bow looking shiny

bow looks sonarless…

why was it painted already unlike the other blocks? you never know

I wouldn’t get your hopes up.

[Repulse]

bow looking shiny

bow looks sonarless…

[new guy]

bow looking shiny

bow looks sonarless…

why was it painted already unlike the other blocks? you never know

I wouldn’t get your hopes up.

aye, a joke. I can see those steel welds from the moon, plus we already saw this block un-painted a month or so ago on the main HMS venture account.

[bobp]

Slightly different view...

[donald_of_tokyo]

Slightly different view...

twitter.com/KevanJonesMP/status/1687031843093168128?s=20

It is now mid-August. How can she "be in the water" by end of this year? Also, her internal build-up looks not well matured. So there will be many works to be done AFTER being in the water.

To say the truth, Iver Huitfeldt class is famous for "easy systems installation after the hull build". In Danish navy case, the navy engineer themselves done many (if not all) of the systems integration work, and even so, she was NOT able to fire a SM-2 until very recently, just ESSM. In other words, spiral development, she did.

So low progress of integration on her hull is not surprising. But, when she will be operational? In her case, she will be handed over to RN but then suddenly goes into "capability enhancement" = adding weapons. And then, "first of class" trial, and then "initial training", and then FOST. Long way to go...

I shall propose the hull-1 and hull-2 NOT to go into "capability enhancement", just commission with minimum armaments to replace KIPION and/or FRE tasks. Double crew BOTH of them, to relieve as many T23 as possible. T23 are getting tired very fast.

Unfortunately, I guess, CAMM looks like included in the "capability enhancement" = not included in the initial contract (hence presumably Babcock guy "do not know" the number of CAMM load). In that case, how to make "capability enhancement" work as short as possible is very important, I think.

[serge750]

Good plan, get the first 2 in service soon as ( even with just guns - would probably only be for a year ) to help with the load, then from hull 3 put NSM missle on & 24 CAMM etc then when all in service & T26 start commisining, 2030? add mk41 to the first 3, bit like the QEC ge them up & running first, especialy as there apears to be not a lot of imfo of whats going in the mk41 apart from FCASW.....by then a decision would of been made, I still think there is a case for a couple of more basic spec ships ( 24 CAMM + NSM + guns ) for patroling the med or gulf etc

[Poiuytrewq]

I still think there is a case for a couple of more basic spec ships ( 24 CAMM + NSM + guns ) for patroling the med or gulf etc

Why not sell the two first of class around 2032?

Helps the drumbeat and maximises the outcome for RN.

[serge750]

I still think there is a case for a couple of more basic spec ships ( 24 CAMM + NSM + guns ) for patroling the med or gulf etc

Why not sell the two first of class around 2032?

Helps the drumbeat and maximises the outcome for RN.

Perfect answer for New Zealand.

Gives time also to increase the BAE drumbeat and replace them with T26s.

[wargame_insomniac]

I still think there is a case for a couple of more basic spec ships ( 24 CAMM + NSM + guns ) for patroling the med or gulf etc

Why not sell the two first of class around 2032?

Helps the drumbeat and maximises the outcome for RN.

Depends on how much the RN can realistically expect to sell them for.
I don't think RN has had good track record of realising good price for selling second hand ships.

[SD67]

I still think there is a case for a couple of more basic spec ships ( 24 CAMM + NSM + guns ) for patroling the med or gulf etc

Why not sell the two first of class around 2032?

Helps the drumbeat and maximises the outcome for RN.

Depends on how much the RN can realistically expect to sell them for.
I don't think RN has had good track record of realising good price for selling second hand ships.

Maybe a barter deal - Kiwi lamb for the RN for the next 10 years

[Caribbean]

Maybe a barter deal - Kiwi lamb for the RN for the next 10 years

As long as it doesn't arrive as tinned mutton!

https://www.hgs-familyhistory.com/2014/ ... 0nothing'.

[Tempest414]

I still think there is a case for a couple of more basic spec ships ( 24 CAMM + NSM + guns ) for patroling the med or gulf etc

Why not sell the two first of class around 2032?

Helps the drumbeat and maximises the outcome for RN.

Depends on how much the RN can realistically expect to sell them for.
I don't think RN has had good track record of realising good price for selling second hand ships.

So what have the RN sold second hand

Type 21 x 6
Type 22 x 7
Type 23 x 3
Castle Class OPV x 2
Island class OPV x 7
River class OPV x 1
Bay class x 1
Ocean
Fort 1's x 2
Hunt class x 6
Sandown class x 3

looks like a fairly good record to me

[Poiuytrewq]

So what have the RN sold second hand…

Sold or given away for the cost of a refit in a UK yard?

[SW1]

Don’t know if the kiwis are interesting in build or just refit maybe neither but this is where your industry strategy should play a role we let them have a unit of the production line in Rosyth and then build another for the RN or whatever combination you wish let’s them get ships sooner and grows the user base. Offer uk based crew training ect.

[SD67]

I shall propose the hull-1 and hull-2 NOT to go into "capability enhancement", just commission with minimum armaments to replace KIPION and/or FRE tasks. Double crew BOTH of them, to relieve as many T23 as possible. T23 are getting tired very fast.

Here's an idea, seeing as the navy seem to have a crew shortage - Hull 1 and Hull 2 as you say do not get capability enhancement but they do get a large number of Trainees for the future rebuilt Ukranian Navy. Pay their wages from the Ukraine aid budget. Then all going well those 2 hulls can be sold on to Ukraine in a few years time, complete with crew who will already know the vessel inside out, maybe financed by international reconstruction loans.

Proceeds help Batch 2 T31s get built (I don't buy the BAE ASF proposal) so RN ends up with 8