New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

[SW1]

Well you could go back to the 2000s and the original future medium helicopter program replacing sea king mk4, lynx and Puma. Project Belvedere co locating in Lyneham or the 2008 parliamentary enquiry into helicopters suggesting a new medium helicopters was the most economical option
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... 34/434.pdf

Every single time higher priorities won sticking plasters solutions rinse repeat.

[Little J]

As expected indeed..... Quite frankly if the requirement drops to 25, then it's simply not worth setting up UK production, we might as well just crack on and buy off the shelf, or just lease.

Setting up a production line for 25 aircraft would make them astronomically expensive, so if the government insists on UK assembly, then make the winning bidder secure significant export orders first, if they can't, then no deal.

We have to avoid Wildcat madness again!

Not sure how the government is supposed to "make" any winning bid magic significant export orders out of thin air?

[Repulse]

I know requirements / technology will evolve but given the OSD for the Merlin HC4 is 2040, surely adding this to a longer term order makes sense - would make 60 over 15 years.

Ok making it capable of maritime operations adds cost, but commonality and flexibility must trump this, along side the cost savings (upfront and long term) for a bigger order.

I doubt very much that a future maritime ASW platform will be a manned helicopter.

[mrclark303]

As expected indeed..... Quite frankly if the requirement drops to 25, then it's simply not worth setting up UK production, we might as well just crack on and buy off the shelf, or just lease.

Setting up a production line for 25 aircraft would make them astronomically expensive, so if the government insists on UK assembly, then make the winning bidder secure significant export orders first, if they can't, then no deal.

We have to avoid Wildcat madness again!

Not sure how the government is supposed to "make" any winning bid magic significant export orders out of thin air?

You make it part of the contractual gateway. Basically, drop procurement to 25 and forget domestic assembly, or we just end up chucking money away again!

Unless the winning bidder can absolutely secure export orders as part of their bid to make it worthwhile.

How they do it, is not our problem, it seems to me with our broken procurement system, we have just been chucking money away at very poorly conceived and managed projects for years.

If manufacturers can't, just buy or lease a suitable off the shelf option.

[SW1]

We demand local production or significant local content for contracts of other things of similar value. Other countries demand local production for contracts of this size

It’s up to those bidding for the contract to decide how much they’re willing to develop locally. We then choose the best one.

People screaming for off shelf mean one thing bung the Americans another multi billion contract and help their employment and gdp grow rather than ours

[GarethDavies1]

Poor decision.

[mrclark303]

We demand local production or significant local content for contracts of other things of similar value. Other countries demand local production for contracts of this size

It’s up to those bidding for the contract to decide how much they’re willing to develop locally. We then choose the best one.

People screaming for off shelf mean one thing bung the Americans another multi billion contract and help their employment and gdp grow rather than ours

But local assembly for just 25 airframes would be absolutely barking mad, they would be by far the world's most expensive medium support helicopters, this is how we just piss away our defence budget on bespoke project like this ...

While this might well help keep a politician in his seat and UK jobs going, it doesn't help the defence budget!

[SW1]

We demand local production or significant local content for contracts of other things of similar value. Other countries demand local production for contracts of this size

It’s up to those bidding for the contract to decide how much they’re willing to develop locally. We then choose the best one.

People screaming for off shelf mean one thing bung the Americans another multi billion contract and help their employment and gdp grow rather than ours

But local assembly for just 25 airframes would be absolutely barking mad, they would be by far the world's most expensive medium support helicopters, this is how we just piss away our defence budget on bespoke project like this ...

While this might well help keep a politician in his seat and UK jobs going, it doesn't help the defence budget!

You’ve got it backwards if a manufacturer believes they can assemble the a/c locally and stay within the budget and required numbers of the contract they will.

When we are forking out a billion odd quid we expect local content it is not bespoke in anyway. Everyone else in the world demands it everyone.

[mrclark303]

We demand local production or significant local content for contracts of other things of similar value. Other countries demand local production for contracts of this size

It’s up to those bidding for the contract to decide how much they’re willing to develop locally. We then choose the best one.

People screaming for off shelf mean one thing bung the Americans another multi billion contract and help their employment and gdp grow rather than ours

But local assembly for just 25 airframes would be absolutely barking mad, they would be by far the world's most expensive medium support helicopters, this is how we just piss away our defence budget on bespoke project like this ...

While this might well help keep a politician in his seat and UK jobs going, it doesn't help the defence budget!

You’ve got it backwards if a manufacturer believes they can assemble the a/c locally and stay within the budget and required numbers of the contract they will.

When we are forking out a billion odd quid we expect local content it is not bespoke in anyway. Everyone else in the world demands it everyone.

With respect SW1, I believe you have it backwards. There is a military requirement that is promptly highjacked by political considerations.
A, is a sitting government seat potentially effected
B, what UK work can be leveraged by bespoke UK modifications. The above considerations ensured our unique AH64D's were double the cost of Uncle Sam's!!!!

Ah, but money flows back to the treasury I hear you say, yes it does, but, and this is the pivotal point, it doesn't flow back to the defence budget. Your defence pound effectively buys you less and less

If you think that either the Airbus or Leonardo offering will ever land at Benson in RAF colours without a raft of bespoke UK specific mods, then you are quite wrong.

Political requirements are front and centre, the tail firmly wags the dog!

[SW1]

We demand local production or significant local content for contracts of other things of similar value. Other countries demand local production for contracts of this size

It’s up to those bidding for the contract to decide how much they’re willing to develop locally. We then choose the best one.

People screaming for off shelf mean one thing bung the Americans another multi billion contract and help their employment and gdp grow rather than ours

But local assembly for just 25 airframes would be absolutely barking mad, they would be by far the world's most expensive medium support helicopters, this is how we just piss away our defence budget on bespoke project like this ...

While this might well help keep a politician in his seat and UK jobs going, it doesn't help the defence budget!

You’ve got it backwards if a manufacturer believes they can assemble the a/c locally and stay within the budget and required numbers of the contract they will.

When we are forking out a billion odd quid we expect local content it is not bespoke in anyway. Everyone else in the world demands it everyone.

With respect SW1, I believe you have it backwards. There is a military requirement that is promptly highjacked by political considerations.
A, is a sitting government seat potentially effected
B, what UK work can be leveraged by bespoke UK modifications. The above considerations ensured our unique AH64D's were double the cost of Uncle Sam's!!!!

Ah, but money flows back to the treasury I hear you say, yes it does, but, and this is the pivotal point, it doesn't flow back to the defence budget. Your defence pound effectively buys you less and less

If you think that either the Airbus or Leonardo offering will ever land at Benson in RAF colours without a raft of bespoke UK specific mods, then you are quite wrong.

Political requirements are front and centre, the tail firmly wags the dog!

And those unique modifications ensured that the aircraft preformed better in an operational theatre and where able to integrated and leverage existing engine and maintenance facilities already in the uk and allowed sovereign ownership of defensive aid systems and protections.


If you insist. But that is now how the contract has been developed much like the type 31, they have presented industry with a budget and asked for between 25-35 aircraft to meet the requirement. They will return their offer based on that, if that includes local assembly or whatever else it is their choice. We know leonardo intend to use there facility in the uk and we know Airbus intend to you there facility in broughton. That’s there choice.

[mrclark303]

We demand local production or significant local content for contracts of other things of similar value. Other countries demand local production for contracts of this size

It’s up to those bidding for the contract to decide how much they’re willing to develop locally. We then choose the best one.

People screaming for off shelf mean one thing bung the Americans another multi billion contract and help their employment and gdp grow rather than ours

But local assembly for just 25 airframes would be absolutely barking mad, they would be by far the world's most expensive medium support helicopters, this is how we just piss away our defence budget on bespoke project like this ...

While this might well help keep a politician in his seat and UK jobs going, it doesn't help the defence budget!

You’ve got it backwards if a manufacturer believes they can assemble the a/c locally and stay within the budget and required numbers of the contract they will.

When we are forking out a billion odd quid we expect local content it is not bespoke in anyway. Everyone else in the world demands it everyone.

With respect SW1, I believe you have it backwards. There is a military requirement that is promptly highjacked by political considerations.
A, is a sitting government seat potentially effected
B, what UK work can be leveraged by bespoke UK modifications. The above considerations ensured our unique AH64D's were double the cost of Uncle Sam's!!!!

Ah, but money flows back to the treasury I hear you say, yes it does, but, and this is the pivotal point, it doesn't flow back to the defence budget. Your defence pound effectively buys you less and less

If you think that either the Airbus or Leonardo offering will ever land at Benson in RAF colours without a raft of bespoke UK specific mods, then you are quite wrong.

Political requirements are front and centre, the tail firmly wags the dog!

And those unique modifications ensured that the aircraft preformed better in an operational theatre and where able to integrated and leverage existing engine and maintenance facilities already in the uk and allowed sovereign ownership of defensive aid systems and protections.


If you insist. But that is now how the contract has been developed much like the type 31, they have presented industry with a budget and asked for between 25-35 aircraft to meet the requirement. They will return their offer based on that, if that includes local assembly or whatever else it is their choice. We know leonardo intend to use there facility in the uk and we know Airbus intend to you there facility in broughton. That’s there choice.

Our opposing viewpoints aside, it's all really academic SW1, the obvious choice of doing a trade based deal with Poland on UH-70's, (the helicopter the Army and RAF actually want), it won't be Blackhawk, it will be the Leanado 149, a 'competition' about as fair as a doped horse race!

[SW1]

We demand local production or significant local content for contracts of other things of similar value. Other countries demand local production for contracts of this size

It’s up to those bidding for the contract to decide how much they’re willing to develop locally. We then choose the best one.

People screaming for off shelf mean one thing bung the Americans another multi billion contract and help their employment and gdp grow rather than ours

But local assembly for just 25 airframes would be absolutely barking mad, they would be by far the world's most expensive medium support helicopters, this is how we just piss away our defence budget on bespoke project like this ...

While this might well help keep a politician in his seat and UK jobs going, it doesn't help the defence budget!

You’ve got it backwards if a manufacturer believes they can assemble the a/c locally and stay within the budget and required numbers of the contract they will.

When we are forking out a billion odd quid we expect local content it is not bespoke in anyway. Everyone else in the world demands it everyone.

With respect SW1, I believe you have it backwards. There is a military requirement that is promptly highjacked by political considerations.
A, is a sitting government seat potentially effected
B, what UK work can be leveraged by bespoke UK modifications. The above considerations ensured our unique AH64D's were double the cost of Uncle Sam's!!!!

Ah, but money flows back to the treasury I hear you say, yes it does, but, and this is the pivotal point, it doesn't flow back to the defence budget. Your defence pound effectively buys you less and less

If you think that either the Airbus or Leonardo offering will ever land at Benson in RAF colours without a raft of bespoke UK specific mods, then you are quite wrong.

Political requirements are front and centre, the tail firmly wags the dog!

And those unique modifications ensured that the aircraft preformed better in an operational theatre and where able to integrated and leverage existing engine and maintenance facilities already in the uk and allowed sovereign ownership of defensive aid systems and protections.


If you insist. But that is now how the contract has been developed much like the type 31, they have presented industry with a budget and asked for between 25-35 aircraft to meet the requirement. They will return their offer based on that, if that includes local assembly or whatever else it is their choice. We know leonardo intend to use there facility in the uk and we know Airbus intend to you there facility in broughton. That’s there choice.

Our opposing viewpoints aside, it's all really academic SW1, the obvious choice of doing a trade based deal with Poland on UH-70's, (the helicopter the Army and RAF actually want), it won't be Blackhawk, it will be the Leanado 149, a 'competition' about as fair as a doped horse race!

Poland who has ordered 8 Blackhawks and hopes to order another 32 but has final assembly?

[mrclark303]

We demand local production or significant local content for contracts of other things of similar value. Other countries demand local production for contracts of this size

It’s up to those bidding for the contract to decide how much they’re willing to develop locally. We then choose the best one.

People screaming for off shelf mean one thing bung the Americans another multi billion contract and help their employment and gdp grow rather than ours

But local assembly for just 25 airframes would be absolutely barking mad, they would be by far the world's most expensive medium support helicopters, this is how we just piss away our defence budget on bespoke project like this ...

While this might well help keep a politician in his seat and UK jobs going, it doesn't help the defence budget!

You’ve got it backwards if a manufacturer believes they can assemble the a/c locally and stay within the budget and required numbers of the contract they will.

When we are forking out a billion odd quid we expect local content it is not bespoke in anyway. Everyone else in the world demands it everyone.

With respect SW1, I believe you have it backwards. There is a military requirement that is promptly highjacked by political considerations.
A, is a sitting government seat potentially effected
B, what UK work can be leveraged by bespoke UK modifications. The above considerations ensured our unique AH64D's were double the cost of Uncle Sam's!!!!

Ah, but money flows back to the treasury I hear you say, yes it does, but, and this is the pivotal point, it doesn't flow back to the defence budget. Your defence pound effectively buys you less and less

If you think that either the Airbus or Leonardo offering will ever land at Benson in RAF colours without a raft of bespoke UK specific mods, then you are quite wrong.

Political requirements are front and centre, the tail firmly wags the dog!

And those unique modifications ensured that the aircraft preformed better in an operational theatre and where able to integrated and leverage existing engine and maintenance facilities already in the uk and allowed sovereign ownership of defensive aid systems and protections.


If you insist. But that is now how the contract has been developed much like the type 31, they have presented industry with a budget and asked for between 25-35 aircraft to meet the requirement. They will return their offer based on that, if that includes local assembly or whatever else it is their choice. We know leonardo intend to use there facility in the uk and we know Airbus intend to you there facility in broughton. That’s there choice.

Our opposing viewpoints aside, it's all really academic SW1, the obvious choice of doing a trade based deal with Poland on UH-70's, (the helicopter the Army and RAF actually want), it won't be Blackhawk, it will be the Leanado 149, a 'competition' about as fair as a doped horse race!

Poland who has ordered 8 Blackhawks and hopes to order another 32 but has final assembly?

Poland who is building Blackhawks, has an initial requirement for 40 ( highly likely to increase), is building standard export model UH-60 M's and will be a European 'type' hub, for repair, overhaul and upgrade, plus likely foreign sales.

That's what you call a solid business case SW1, a great example, thanks for pointing it out.

I knew we would see eye to eye in the end

[SW1]

We demand local production or significant local content for contracts of other things of similar value. Other countries demand local production for contracts of this size

It’s up to those bidding for the contract to decide how much they’re willing to develop locally. We then choose the best one.

People screaming for off shelf mean one thing bung the Americans another multi billion contract and help their employment and gdp grow rather than ours

But local assembly for just 25 airframes would be absolutely barking mad, they would be by far the world's most expensive medium support helicopters, this is how we just piss away our defence budget on bespoke project like this ...

While this might well help keep a politician in his seat and UK jobs going, it doesn't help the defence budget!

You’ve got it backwards if a manufacturer believes they can assemble the a/c locally and stay within the budget and required numbers of the contract they will.

When we are forking out a billion odd quid we expect local content it is not bespoke in anyway. Everyone else in the world demands it everyone.

With respect SW1, I believe you have it backwards. There is a military requirement that is promptly highjacked by political considerations.
A, is a sitting government seat potentially effected
B, what UK work can be leveraged by bespoke UK modifications. The above considerations ensured our unique AH64D's were double the cost of Uncle Sam's!!!!

Ah, but money flows back to the treasury I hear you say, yes it does, but, and this is the pivotal point, it doesn't flow back to the defence budget. Your defence pound effectively buys you less and less

If you think that either the Airbus or Leonardo offering will ever land at Benson in RAF colours without a raft of bespoke UK specific mods, then you are quite wrong.

Political requirements are front and centre, the tail firmly wags the dog!

And those unique modifications ensured that the aircraft preformed better in an operational theatre and where able to integrated and leverage existing engine and maintenance facilities already in the uk and allowed sovereign ownership of defensive aid systems and protections.


If you insist. But that is now how the contract has been developed much like the type 31, they have presented industry with a budget and asked for between 25-35 aircraft to meet the requirement. They will return their offer based on that, if that includes local assembly or whatever else it is their choice. We know leonardo intend to use there facility in the uk and we know Airbus intend to you there facility in broughton. That’s there choice.

Our opposing viewpoints aside, it's all really academic SW1, the obvious choice of doing a trade based deal with Poland on UH-70's, (the helicopter the Army and RAF actually want), it won't be Blackhawk, it will be the Leanado 149, a 'competition' about as fair as a doped horse race!

Poland who has ordered 8 Blackhawks and hopes to order another 32 but has final assembly?

Poland who is building Blackhawks, has an initial requirement for 40 ( highly likely to increase), is building standard export model UH-60 M's and will be a European 'type' hub, for repair, overhaul and upgrade, plus likely foreign sales.

That's what you call a solid business case SW1, a great example, thanks for pointing it out.

I knew we would see eye to eye in the end

Exactly if Poland gets final assembly for less than 40 helicopters so should we.

If they had such large sums to overseas manufacture they deserve there budget cut.

[mrclark303]

We demand local production or significant local content for contracts of other things of similar value. Other countries demand local production for contracts of this size

It’s up to those bidding for the contract to decide how much they’re willing to develop locally. We then choose the best one.

People screaming for off shelf mean one thing bung the Americans another multi billion contract and help their employment and gdp grow rather than ours

But local assembly for just 25 airframes would be absolutely barking mad, they would be by far the world's most expensive medium support helicopters, this is how we just piss away our defence budget on bespoke project like this ...

While this might well help keep a politician in his seat and UK jobs going, it doesn't help the defence budget!

You’ve got it backwards if a manufacturer believes they can assemble the a/c locally and stay within the budget and required numbers of the contract they will.

When we are forking out a billion odd quid we expect local content it is not bespoke in anyway. Everyone else in the world demands it everyone.

With respect SW1, I believe you have it backwards. There is a military requirement that is promptly highjacked by political considerations.
A, is a sitting government seat potentially effected
B, what UK work can be leveraged by bespoke UK modifications. The above considerations ensured our unique AH64D's were double the cost of Uncle Sam's!!!!

Ah, but money flows back to the treasury I hear you say, yes it does, but, and this is the pivotal point, it doesn't flow back to the defence budget. Your defence pound effectively buys you less and less

If you think that either the Airbus or Leonardo offering will ever land at Benson in RAF colours without a raft of bespoke UK specific mods, then you are quite wrong.

Political requirements are front and centre, the tail firmly wags the dog!

And those unique modifications ensured that the aircraft preformed better in an operational theatre and where able to integrated and leverage existing engine and maintenance facilities already in the uk and allowed sovereign ownership of defensive aid systems and protections.


If you insist. But that is now how the contract has been developed much like the type 31, they have presented industry with a budget and asked for between 25-35 aircraft to meet the requirement. They will return their offer based on that, if that includes local assembly or whatever else it is their choice. We know leonardo intend to use there facility in the uk and we know Airbus intend to you there facility in broughton. That’s there choice.

Our opposing viewpoints aside, it's all really academic SW1, the obvious choice of doing a trade based deal with Poland on UH-70's, (the helicopter the Army and RAF actually want), it won't be Blackhawk, it will be the Leanado 149, a 'competition' about as fair as a doped horse race!

Poland who has ordered 8 Blackhawks and hopes to order another 32 but has final assembly?

Poland who is building Blackhawks, has an initial requirement for 40 ( highly likely to increase), is building standard export model UH-60 M's and will be a European 'type' hub, for repair, overhaul and upgrade, plus likely foreign sales.

That's what you call a solid business case SW1, a great example, thanks for pointing it out.

I knew we would see eye to eye in the end

Exactly if Poland gets final assembly for less than 40 helicopters so should we.

If they had such large sums to overseas manufacture they deserve there budget cut.

Unfortunately, our dithering in replacing Puma has wound up with us missing out on any sort of manufacturing deal on the UH-60.

The manufacturing aspect of the UH-60 is only one aspect of the deal the Poles landed, it's a regional hub for sales, parts, repair and upgrade of the type for foreign operators. They will probably start carrying out work on the European US Army fleet too.

It's potentially very lucrative and an abject lesson in how to actually develop a viable and sustainable helicopter industry.

Sadly many moons ago when Westland was offered European assembly of the UH-60 we decided against it.

What's happened in the UK in the meantime, Westland sold to GKN, who in turn sold it to Leonardo, this ending the UK owned helicopter industry.

No long term strategy to retain the industry, just sold off like all our public utilities where, to the highest bidder.

Today Leonardo fly their 149 demonstrator wrapped in the Union flag, it's no more British than Palma Ham!

I'll bet even the flag wrap colour scheme was done in Italy!

[SW1]

We demand local production or significant local content for contracts of other things of similar value. Other countries demand local production for contracts of this size

It’s up to those bidding for the contract to decide how much they’re willing to develop locally. We then choose the best one.

People screaming for off shelf mean one thing bung the Americans another multi billion contract and help their employment and gdp grow rather than ours

But local assembly for just 25 airframes would be absolutely barking mad, they would be by far the world's most expensive medium support helicopters, this is how we just piss away our defence budget on bespoke project like this ...

While this might well help keep a politician in his seat and UK jobs going, it doesn't help the defence budget!

You’ve got it backwards if a manufacturer believes they can assemble the a/c locally and stay within the budget and required numbers of the contract they will.

When we are forking out a billion odd quid we expect local content it is not bespoke in anyway. Everyone else in the world demands it everyone.

With respect SW1, I believe you have it backwards. There is a military requirement that is promptly highjacked by political considerations.
A, is a sitting government seat potentially effected
B, what UK work can be leveraged by bespoke UK modifications. The above considerations ensured our unique AH64D's were double the cost of Uncle Sam's!!!!

Ah, but money flows back to the treasury I hear you say, yes it does, but, and this is the pivotal point, it doesn't flow back to the defence budget. Your defence pound effectively buys you less and less

If you think that either the Airbus or Leonardo offering will ever land at Benson in RAF colours without a raft of bespoke UK specific mods, then you are quite wrong.

Political requirements are front and centre, the tail firmly wags the dog!

And those unique modifications ensured that the aircraft preformed better in an operational theatre and where able to integrated and leverage existing engine and maintenance facilities already in the uk and allowed sovereign ownership of defensive aid systems and protections.


If you insist. But that is now how the contract has been developed much like the type 31, they have presented industry with a budget and asked for between 25-35 aircraft to meet the requirement. They will return their offer based on that, if that includes local assembly or whatever else it is their choice. We know leonardo intend to use there facility in the uk and we know Airbus intend to you there facility in broughton. That’s there choice.

Our opposing viewpoints aside, it's all really academic SW1, the obvious choice of doing a trade based deal with Poland on UH-70's, (the helicopter the Army and RAF actually want), it won't be Blackhawk, it will be the Leanado 149, a 'competition' about as fair as a doped horse race!

Poland who has ordered 8 Blackhawks and hopes to order another 32 but has final assembly?

Poland who is building Blackhawks, has an initial requirement for 40 ( highly likely to increase), is building standard export model UH-60 M's and will be a European 'type' hub, for repair, overhaul and upgrade, plus likely foreign sales.

That's what you call a solid business case SW1, a great example, thanks for pointing it out.

I knew we would see eye to eye in the end

Exactly if Poland gets final assembly for less than 40 helicopters so should we.

If they had such large sums to overseas manufacture they deserve there budget cut.

Unfortunately, our dithering in replacing Puma has wound up with us missing out on any sort of manufacturing deal on the UH-60.

The manufacturing aspect of the UH-60 is only one aspect of the deal the Poles landed, it's a regional hub for sales, parts, repair and upgrade of the type for foreign operators. They will probably start carrying out work on the European US Army fleet too.

It's potentially very lucrative and an abject lesson in how to actually develop a viable and sustainable helicopter industry.

Sadly many moons ago when Westland was offered European assembly of the UH-60 we decided against it.

What's happened in the UK in the meantime, Westland sold to GKN, who in turn sold it to Leonardo, this ending the UK owned helicopter industry.

No long term strategy to retain the industry, just sold off like all our public utilities where, to the highest bidder.

Today Leonardo fly their 149 demonstrator wrapped in the Union flag, it's no more British than Palma Ham!

I'll bet even the flag wrap colour scheme was done in Italy!

Then uh-60 is off the table . If your not willing to provide tangible in country incentives and others are then your not wanted it’s not difficult.

The U.K. still doesn’t have a coherent strategy in rotorcraft it’s continual sticking plasters.

[new guy]

It should be noted that MoD have denied scaling back the NMH numbers...

[mrclark303]

It should be noted that MoD have denied scaling back the NMH numbers...

I noted that this morning, a bit of false information perhaps, we will see very soon.

Personally I think the original story has ring of truth to it going by past MOD behaviour.

A core of 25 new Medium helos and a continuation of the lease agreement for the sundry requirments.

[mrclark303]

We demand local production or significant local content for contracts of other things of similar value. Other countries demand local production for contracts of this size

It’s up to those bidding for the contract to decide how much they’re willing to develop locally. We then choose the best one.

People screaming for off shelf mean one thing bung the Americans another multi billion contract and help their employment and gdp grow rather than ours

But local assembly for just 25 airframes would be absolutely barking mad, they would be by far the world's most expensive medium support helicopters, this is how we just piss away our defence budget on bespoke project like this ...

While this might well help keep a politician in his seat and UK jobs going, it doesn't help the defence budget!

You’ve got it backwards if a manufacturer believes they can assemble the a/c locally and stay within the budget and required numbers of the contract they will.

When we are forking out a billion odd quid we expect local content it is not bespoke in anyway. Everyone else in the world demands it everyone.

With respect SW1, I believe you have it backwards. There is a military requirement that is promptly highjacked by political considerations.
A, is a sitting government seat potentially effected
B, what UK work can be leveraged by bespoke UK modifications. The above considerations ensured our unique AH64D's were double the cost of Uncle Sam's!!!!

Ah, but money flows back to the treasury I hear you say, yes it does, but, and this is the pivotal point, it doesn't flow back to the defence budget. Your defence pound effectively buys you less and less

If you think that either the Airbus or Leonardo offering will ever land at Benson in RAF colours without a raft of bespoke UK specific mods, then you are quite wrong.

Political requirements are front and centre, the tail firmly wags the dog!

And those unique modifications ensured that the aircraft preformed better in an operational theatre and where able to integrated and leverage existing engine and maintenance facilities already in the uk and allowed sovereign ownership of defensive aid systems and protections.


If you insist. But that is now how the contract has been developed much like the type 31, they have presented industry with a budget and asked for between 25-35 aircraft to meet the requirement. They will return their offer based on that, if that includes local assembly or whatever else it is their choice. We know leonardo intend to use there facility in the uk and we know Airbus intend to you there facility in broughton. That’s there choice.

Our opposing viewpoints aside, it's all really academic SW1, the obvious choice of doing a trade based deal with Poland on UH-70's, (the helicopter the Army and RAF actually want), it won't be Blackhawk, it will be the Leanado 149, a 'competition' about as fair as a doped horse race!

Poland who has ordered 8 Blackhawks and hopes to order another 32 but has final assembly?

Poland who is building Blackhawks, has an initial requirement for 40 ( highly likely to increase), is building standard export model UH-60 M's and will be a European 'type' hub, for repair, overhaul and upgrade, plus likely foreign sales.

That's what you call a solid business case SW1, a great example, thanks for pointing it out.

I knew we would see eye to eye in the end

Exactly if Poland gets final assembly for less than 40 helicopters so should we.

If they had such large sums to overseas manufacture they deserve there budget cut.

Unfortunately, our dithering in replacing Puma has wound up with us missing out on any sort of manufacturing deal on the UH-60.

The manufacturing aspect of the UH-60 is only one aspect of the deal the Poles landed, it's a regional hub for sales, parts, repair and upgrade of the type for foreign operators. They will probably start carrying out work on the European US Army fleet too.

It's potentially very lucrative and an abject lesson in how to actually develop a viable and sustainable helicopter industry.

Sadly many moons ago when Westland was offered European assembly of the UH-60 we decided against it.

What's happened in the UK in the meantime, Westland sold to GKN, who in turn sold it to Leonardo, this ending the UK owned helicopter industry.

No long term strategy to retain the industry, just sold off like all our public utilities where, to the highest bidder.

Today Leonardo fly their 149 demonstrator wrapped in the Union flag, it's no more British than Palma Ham!

I'll bet even the flag wrap colour scheme was done in Italy!

Then uh-60 is off the table . If your not willing to provide tangible in country incentives and others are then your not wanted it’s not difficult.

The U.K. still doesn’t have a coherent strategy in rotorcraft it’s continual sticking plasters.

Continual sticking plasters covers it well!

[jonas]

Less speculation, now a little fact :-

https://helihub.com/2023/07/24/no-chang ... uirements/

[mrclark303]

Less speculation, now a little fact :-

https://helihub.com/2023/07/24/no-chang ... uirements/

I'll believe it when l see it....

[Tempest414]

Less speculation, now a little fact :-

https://helihub.com/2023/07/24/no-chang ... uirements/

I'll believe it when l see it....

The Key words here are UP TO 44 this means it could be as low as said 25

[jonas]

Less speculation, now a little fact :-

https://helihub.com/2023/07/24/no-chang ... uirements/

I'll believe it when l see it....

The Key words here are UP TO 44 this means it could be as low as said 25

It also means it could be as high as said 44.

[Tempest414]

Less speculation, now a little fact :-

https://helihub.com/2023/07/24/no-chang ... uirements/

I'll believe it when l see it....

The Key words here are UP TO 44 this means it could be as low as said 25

It also means it could be as high as said 44.

Lets hope it is 44 as said I think it should 60+ and they also need to be Carrier capable with some form of folding rotor head

[SW1]

When was the last the UK procured something with an up to number that actually resulted in that up to number being procured?