Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[SW1]

Great one frigate per RFA, utterly pointless.

Do we not escort RFAs in locations we deem it necessary already.

Yes, but you are completely missing the point by adding more and then expecting them to be paired by escorts.

I’m not really, if using lots of unmanned systems is the “future” then RFAs are perfect for deploying them, ships that are effectively transporting them to a region of concern. We recent bought such a vessel for 70m pounds we could buy another 3 and it would still be cheaper than buying a frigate and driving future cost into a frigate design.

If you don’t wish to buy new vessels then the tankers the RFAs have, have quite large cranes and deck space to store a number. See previous wave tanker deployments as examples. The Rovers for example used to sustain escorts on various stations in much the same way just a further modification to the idea.

[Repulse]

Where are you going to build your sloops? They will need a second yard too. And as for your characterisation of T31 as not being able to go in harms way how is your sloop going to do the same? It is surely by your own definition is less of a warship than T31.

By Babcock, but not a yard that is trying to complete for frigate orders, but one dedicated to OPV/Sloop sized vessels with a relative low level of complexity.

Firstly I was using the term auxiliary in the vessel sense i.e. a naval vessel (such as a tanker or supply ship) auxiliary to the fighting ships not to refer specifically to the RFA. Secondly you belief that RFA vessels don't operate in 'slightly warm' areas is nonsense. Where would the RFA LSDs operate during an amphibious landing? Stay at home in port? The LSLs in the Falkland's were never attached were they?

Increasingly they are being put in harms way, but it doesn’t make it right. The Falklands shows when exactly what goes wrong when it happens, just ask the survivors of the Sir Galahad disaster.

[wargame_insomniac]

For a man who wants to not chase numbers and thinks we should cut our cloth accordingly buying two more T26 and an undefined number of a new class of sloops seems somewhat antithetical. How much is that lot going to cost?

A damn a lot less than trying to maintain two frigate yards with inefficient build drumbeats. Plus, you end up with two frigates that can actually do something rather than five that cannot go in harms way and do anything useful.

@Repulse - most of what you write is broadly sensible and I generally agree with. So please don't take offense when I say that, on this one point, I believe your opinion is totally wrong.

You previously talked about selling all five T31s second hand and building two T26s. When I asked you how much you realistically expected to sell them for, you chose to ignore that. You again have repeated like some mantra, two T26s for five T31s.

Given UK's track record of selling UK built escorts over the last two-three decades, I don't think we can bank on too much cash. Australia, Canada, Poland and even Indonesia might all like UK designs, but telling that even the latter two want to build their T31s at home, rather than the hoped for export of UK build.

Putting it bluntly I think AT BEST the RN would get enough from selling the five T31s to pay for ONE T26. Any talk of two or more T26s is playing Fantasy Fleets. Sure, we all do it a times. Back when 3% Defence Spending seemed a firm spnding commitment, we could dream of RN say getting an extra £2bn, and if so then more T26s would have been top of my personal fantasy spending list. (I would have wantd more SSN but there did nt seem to be the capaicty of even adding one more Astute before Barrow production switches to Dreadnought SSBN).

But that 3% spending dream looks to have faded, and I doubt any future Labour government would take money away from NHS and give to Defence, which means that dream has likely gone until at least 2030's. So anytime you utter your mantra "two T26s for five T31s", then I will ask where are you getting your £2bn cash from?

PS: And that is without thinking about the RN having to pull away their expensive ASW specialist escorts from the tasks that THEY are optimised for to fufill those missions that would have otherwise been covered by the cheap GP escorts that were actually optimised for those very tasks.....

[Repulse]

... When I asked you how much you realistically expected to sell them for, you chose to ignore that. You again have repeated like some mantra, two T26s for five T31s.

Apologies, it wasn’t on purpose. Tbh, how much we’d get for the 5 T31s depends enormously. The best way of getting the highest value would be for the UK government to provide finance, or to part discount using a military aid budget. Personally, I’d say the full £250mn per unit could be achievable, if following this approach.

The unit price for a T26 was £800mn for 5 units, I’d argue that a discount on this would be possible for another 2.

[wargame_insomniac]

No worries.

Unfortunately, I disagree with both parts of that. I don't think the RN would be able to get back the full cost of T31s, and I aslo don't think that we would be able to get additional T26s for just £800m but we have done the T26 marginal costing to death, so I don't want to get into that debate once again.

So I will just have to note that my opinion on the topic is different to your opinion, and that is fine.

[Tempest414]

I have to say all this talk of not sending the type 31 into harms way is frankly bollocks as one will be stationed in currently the the most hostile place the Gulf on top of this a Type 26 will fare no better an a type 31 against a hypersonic missile on top of this all the of talk of type 26 v type 31 and cost

Type 26 at best current cost 800 million

1 x 127mm , 2 x 30mm , 2 x Phalanx , 48 CAMM , 24 Mk-41 cells full plus full ASW fit

Type 31 at best current cost 280 million

1 x 57mm , 2 x 40mm , 24 CAMM ? , FFBNW 32 Mk-41 cells , No ASW fitt

given these facts we could add the 32 Mk-41 cells plus NSM plus a containerised TAS for around 100 million bring the cost of type 31 up to 380 million per ship

Now before someone shouts but type 31 costs 400 million per ship yes it dose if you add the full program costs but then we have to do the same for type 26 which makes it 1.026 billion per ship and we can know not what the next ship will cost until it is ordered

Now with all of this said what could 2.6 billion buy us

4 x full fat Type 31 = 1.520 billion
1 x Type 26 = 800 million
5 x 40mm guns ( for the B2 ) = 100 million
30 x Camcopter systems = 100 million ( this would include 60 air vehicles , 30 ground stations , plus ground equipment and training

total cost 2.520 billion

[donald_of_tokyo]

All these escort discussion is good, well matured, and still good to continue, I think.

By the way, I here have a proposal for "T31/T31mod for NZ navy" plan. How to make NZ buy T31?

Backgound
- RNZN's two Te Kaha class frigate have commonality with RN; CAMM, torpedo defense, decoys and CIWS.
- Their CMS/radar are the same to the Halifax class. They have a long 7000 nm range/endurance. They are major contributors of TF150 = really working blue water (light) frigates.
- Current armaments are: 127 mm, 20x CAMM, 20mm CIWS, 2x 1.27mm RWS, several MGs, SeaSprite, 2x triple AS torpedo, hull-sonar, SeaSentor STDS, with ~180 crew (including flight). In short, "a smaller sister of T23GP".

RNZN needs lightly armed, long-range, high-standard frigates to replace the 2 frigates around 2035-36. Most of these characteristics matches well with T31. At the same time, they lack money (as much as RN does). At the same time, RNZN motto is to "become the best small blue water navy in the world".

Proposal
Then, how about selling three RN T31s to NZ on 2035?
- NZ will get three 8-10 years old "relatively new" blue water GP frigates "at once" (good for training/logistics).
- Crew number matches (120x 3 = 180 x2 including flight).
- Slightly up-arming the 3 T31 (adding a hull sonar and AS torpedo launchers) can be done at NZ by Babcock-NZ.
- If the unit cost of a T31 for RN is ~£300Mx3 =£900M, sell it with ~£200M x3 = ~£600M because about 1/3 of the life has been past.
Merit to NZ is, they get "the 3rd frigate" relatively cheap, which enables continuous deployment of a single frigate (until ~2020, sending frigates to TF150 was the major international contribution of NZ), but will loose 127 mm NGFS capability. Can give so-so work for Babcock-NZ, and can keep "commonalty with RN = top-ranked navy", by combining RAN T26 and RNZN T31-mod.

On the RN-side, my proposal will be to buy Te Kaha and Te Mana from RNZN on 2035 (very cheaply).
- Reuse the two 127mm guns (and 2-sets of LMS-boxes of CAMM) for "T26 Batch-3", a gap filler between T26-end and T83-start, to be delivered around 2038-40 (but omit the automated arsenal). Spending £1.6Bn.
- Order 3 up-armed T31 (with 16-Mk 41 VLS, 24-CAMM mushrooms and a hull sonar) to be delivered around 2035, 2037, 2038 (1.5 years drumbeat) from Babcock Rosyth. Spending £1Bn.

Merit to RN is,
- £900M-£600M = £300M is well-used by the 8-10 years of the 3 T31's service. So, it equates to £900M (in other words, the T31B2s can be operated for 8-10 years later than T31B1 can). Then, the actual total cost is £1.6Bn + £1Bn - £0.9Bn = £1.7Bn smallish.
- New-build of up-armed T31 is cheaper than mid-life up-arming the existing T31s.
- Rosyth gets orders to "save the day" while can enjoy learning curves to enable relatively cheap but slightly up-armed T31B2.
- The remaining two T31B1 can be kept "as is", because the KIPION task can be well covered by them (I understand current T31 is laser-focused on it).
- If (only if) there be a total of £2.6Bn of money, RN can use the remaining £0.9Bn for "3 more T31B2". This will provide RN fleet with 4-6 T45, 10 T26 and 8 T31 = 22-24 escorts.

[tomuk]

Interesting proposal. On thing to note is that if NZ wanted to it wouldn't be very hard at all to transfer over their existing Mk45 guns. They have the bog standard Mk45 without all the automated mag nonsense of T26.

[Tempest414]

All these escort discussion is good, well matured, and still good to continue, I think.

By the way, I here have a proposal for "T31/T31mod for NZ navy" plan. How to make NZ buy T31?

Backgound
- RNZN's two Te Kaha class frigate have commonality with RN; CAMM, torpedo defense, decoys and CIWS.
- Their CMS/radar are the same to the Halifax class. They have a long 7000 nm range/endurance. They are major contributors of TF150 = really working blue water (light) frigates.
- Current armaments are: 127 mm, 20x CAMM, 20mm CIWS, 2x 1.27mm RWS, several MGs, SeaSprite, 2x triple AS torpedo, hull-sonar, SeaSentor STDS, with ~180 crew (including flight). In short, "a smaller sister of T23GP".

RNZN needs lightly armed, long-range, high-standard frigates to replace the 2 frigates around 2035-36. Most of these characteristics matches well with T31. At the same time, they lack money (as much as RN does). At the same time, RNZN motto is to "become the best small blue water navy in the world".

Proposal
Then, how about selling three RN T31s to NZ on 2035?
- NZ will get three 8-10 years old "relatively new" blue water GP frigates "at once" (good for training/logistics).
- Crew number matches (120x 3 = 180 x2 including flight).
- Slightly up-arming the 3 T31 (adding a hull sonar and AS torpedo launchers) can be done at NZ by Babcock-NZ.
- If the unit cost of a T31 for RN is ~£300Mx3 =£900M, sell it with ~£200M x3 = ~£600M because about 1/3 of the life has been past.
Merit to NZ is, they get "the 3rd frigate" relatively cheap, which enables continuous deployment of a single frigate (until ~2020, sending frigates to TF150 was the major international contribution of NZ), but will loose 127 mm NGFS capability. Can give so-so work for Babcock-NZ, and can keep "commonalty with RN = top-ranked navy", by combining RAN T26 and RNZN T31-mod.

On the RN-side, my proposal will be to buy Te Kaha and Te Mana from RNZN on 2035 (very cheaply).
- Reuse the two 127mm guns (and 2-sets of LMS-boxes of CAMM) for "T26 Batch-3", a gap filler between T26-end and T83-start, to be delivered around 2038-40 (but omit the automated arsenal). Spending £1.6Bn.
- Order 3 up-armed T31 (with 16-Mk 41 VLS, 24-CAMM mushrooms and a hull sonar) to be delivered around 2035, 2037, 2038 (1.5 years drumbeat) from Babcock Rosyth. Spending £1Bn.

Merit to RN is,
- £900M-£600M = £300M is well-used by the 8-10 years of the 3 T31's service. So, it equates to £900M (in other words, the T31B2s can be operated for 8-10 years later than T31B1 can). Then, the actual total cost is £1.6Bn + £1Bn - £0.9Bn = £1.7Bn smallish.
- New-build of up-armed T31 is cheaper than mid-life up-arming the existing T31s.
- Rosyth gets orders to "save the day" while can enjoy learning curves to enable relatively cheap but slightly up-armed T31B2.
- The remaining two T31B1 can be kept "as is", because the KIPION task can be well covered by them (I understand current T31 is laser-focused on it).
- If (only if) there be a total of £2.6Bn of money, RN can use the remaining £0.9Bn for "3 more T31B2". This will provide RN fleet with 4-6 T45, 10 T26 and 8 T31 = 22-24 escorts.

I note that you have 10 Type 26 but I don't see where they are coming from am I missing something

[donald_of_tokyo]

I note that you have 10 Type 26 but I don't see where they are coming from am I missing something

Thanks. I put it as a "gap filler" between T26-end and T26-replcement start, a huge gap I do not think can be filled with T83. I'm almost sure it will be needed. ("it" = gap filler).

Can be "more T26" (cheaper thanks to learning curve).
Can also be "T32 by BAES".
Better be "more T83", but I cannot imagine it.

[Tempest414]

I note that you have 10 Type 26 but I don't see where they are coming from am I missing something

Thanks. I put it as a "gap filler" between T26-end and T26-replcement start, a huge gap I do not think can be filled with T83. I'm almost sure it will be needed. ("it" = gap filler).

Can be "more T26" (cheaper thanks to learning curve).
Can also be "T32 by BAES".
Better be "more T83", but I cannot imagine it.

OK thanks for me I don't like predicting that ships will get cheaper until the contact is signed I would say that BAE had little choice but to build type 26 B2 for 800 million due to the 8 billion pound program budget the fact that the program is already over spent is not a good place to be and any more over spend needs to be added to the 800 per ships meaning costs going up this in turn would mean the likely hood of Type 26 B3 being that much cheaper is low but I hope I am wrong

For this reason I have tried to use best known price which for Type 26 is 800 million and for Type 31 it is 280 million. I agree that there could be a gap that will need to be addressed maybe the other way is to sell the first 2 type 26's for 650 to 700 million each and put the learning curve to the test by building 2 for that money

[donald_of_tokyo]

... I agree that there could be a gap that will need to be addressed maybe the other way is to sell the first 2 type 26's for 650 to 700 million each and put the learning curve to the test by building 2 for that money

Who will buy the 2 T26s? Selling T31s will be much easier.

Ideally, if NZ goes to very much increasing its defense budget, selling new-built two T26 to RNZN is the good answer. I will cost £1.6Bn for NZ. Very unlikely. So, proposing selling T31s.

[Tempest414]

... I agree that there could be a gap that will need to be addressed maybe the other way is to sell the first 2 type 26's for 650 to 700 million each and put the learning curve to the test by building 2 for that money

Who will buy the 2 T26s? Selling T31s will be much easier.

Ideally, if NZ goes to very much increasing its defense budget, selling new-built two T26 to RNZN is the good answer. I will cost £1.6Bn for NZ. Very unlikely. So, proposing selling T31s.

Who knows maybe Norway would be up for buying 4 ships if they got the first two ships plus 2 new ones at say 700 million per ship my point is it would put every ones learning curve theory to the test when it comes to UK ship building and BAE

When it comes to selling Type 31 for 300 million there is no hope on earth there claimed build cost is 260 to 280 million so the best you could hope for is 180, 190 million tops

If and it is a if there was 2.6 billion going and if BAE could get the cost of Type 26 down to 700 million then maybe we could go for
2 x Type 26 = 1.4 billion
3 x Full fat T-31's = 1. 14
total = 2.54 billion

Of course there is another way which is

Babcocks build 5 x Full fat type 31's for 1.9 billion and BAE build a new class of 8 OPV's to fill the gap between T-26 & T-83 and sell off all the River B2's at 40 million a pop

1.9 billion + 800 million = 2.7 billion - 200 million = 2.5 billion

[donald_of_tokyo]

When it comes to selling Type 31 for 300 million there is no hope on earth there claimed build cost is 260 to 280 million so the best you could hope for is 180, 190 million tops

Who said so? At least, not me.

[Tempest414]

When it comes to selling Type 31 for 300 million there is no hope on earth there claimed build cost is 260 to 280 million so the best you could hope for is 180, 190 million tops

Who said so? At least, not me.

You are right you did say 200 million however trying to sell old ships and recoup the money through MHT is about as messy as it can get to the point it is a none stater

[donald_of_tokyo]

When it comes to selling Type 31 for 300 million there is no hope on earth there claimed build cost is 260 to 280 million so the best you could hope for is 180, 190 million tops

Who said so? At least, not me.

You are right you did say 200 million however trying to sell old ships and recoup the money through MHT is about as messy as it can get to the point it is a none stater

No big objection. I made a trick there.

1: All the Background is related. RNZN has similar philosophy, tactics and training scheme as RN. So, by using the same assets as RN has, they can avoid establishing "first of class manual making and training-system establishing process" which normally requires 1-2 years of extensive trials (the reason why T26-hull1 and T45-hull1 need 1-2 years longer time than later hulls between "delivery" and "into service"). I understand RNZN can directly "import" such system from RN, RAN and RCN, but not from France nor South Korea. RAN and RCN does not have good T31-like lightly armed frigate to sell to RNZN. Other NATO blue-water navies (Dutch, German, Spain and Italy) also do not have such escorts in build, other than Italian PPA. So, T31 or PPA is the asset NZ has a merit to buy, and among them T31 fits the best.

2: And anyway, the cost is not large. Even if the "£200M each" become "£150M", the total cash UK loses is "only" £150M in total, and my calculation is generally unchanged.

There are good merits selling T31 to NZ (mutual merits). But, it does need good action from UK-side. As UK must be pushing for escort export, they shall do their best here.

[Poiuytrewq]

Interesting debate but very little consensus that I can detect.

In an effort to simplify the debate,

RN has or will have just enough Tier 1 escorts and auxiliaries to provide a credible CSG capability and protect the CASD.

2x CVF
8x T26
6x T45
4x Tides
3x FSS

It’s a solid force but all of these vessels need to remain active and avoid the dreaded extended readiness.

Excluding the MCMVs, their replacements and the survey vessels, current planning suggests by 2030 this leaves,

5x T31
5x RB2
2x Albion
3x Bays
2x Waves
Argus

The status of the Points (or replacements) after 2026 appears uncertain or at least undecided.

Current planning shows no sign of any sale of the RB2s or the T31s so I think we all have to accept that they are staying for the foreseeable.

That leaves the Albions, Bays, Waves and Argus to be replaced by the MRSS programme in the 2030s.

The escorts for the MRSS vessels are to be five T32 Frigates and there is no program on the horizon to replace the RB1s at this stage.

I estimate the total cost of the proposed T32 and MRSS programmes at around £5bn over 14 years starting in 2026. It’s a lot of money.

IMO there are a number of possibilities to achieve a similar or better outcome to current planning.

My Proposal - The budget option:

1. Cancel T32 and MRSS programmes.

2. Upgrade T31s by adding additional weapons/sensors
- Move 57mm to B position. Add 127mm to A position. Retain both 40mm for both a port/starboard arc.
- Add 32 CAMM
- Add 24 Mk41 cells
- Add 8x NSM (Retain space for 16 canisters)
- Add 2150 and 2087.
- Add a deck crane and improve access between mission spaces.

Total cost for the 5 hulls: £800m

3. Build five compact LSVs in the 130m class. Something similar to a Vard Series 7 313 but with the beam narrowed to 22m and a top speed of 24knts.
https://vardmarine.com/wp-content/uploa ... -7-313.pdf

Fit a 57mm, 2x 40mm and Artisan with CAMM added via PODs if required.

The two spot flight deck, hanger space for 4 medium helicopters, stern ramp and 4 davits make these highly versatile and very capable.
Aim for a cost of £900m for the five OPVs.

4. Convert the Albions by adding hanger space for 2 medium helicopters and additional heavy lift UAVs. Add 57mm, 2x40mm and allocate space for CAMM via PODs. Complete comprehensive LIFEX and push OSDs back to 2050. Reactivate both Albions.
Total cost: £300m

5. Build two 200m LHDs optimised for Amphibious Assault and MALE Drones. Aim for a capacity of,
- 8 medium helicopters
- 12 MALE or heavy lift drones
- 2 LCU in a floodable dock
- 4 LCVP or CB90 via davits
- 40t crane plus ability to launch and recover mexeflotes.
- 650lm RORO
- Add 4x40mm, 24 CAMM and Artisan
- Top speed 24knts
- Range 10000 nmi
Total cost: £1.2bn

IMO this would give RN a massively more capable fleet for a total cost of around £3.2bn. That’s a saving of £1.7bn from the expected cost of the T32 and MRSS programmes.

The benefits would be clear:

Amphib and LSV capacity of,
- 12 LCUs
- 40 Medium helicopters
- 26 landing spots plus 2x 200m flight decks for MALE drones
- Over 4500lm of RORO
- Over 2500 PAX

The £1.7bn saved could build an additional two T26s or any number of other priorities including increasing manpower, investing in additional UAVs, USVs and XLUUVs.

This may be the budget option but IMO it’s a better option than current planning.

[tomuk]

2. Upgrade T31s by adding additional weapons/sensors
- Move 57mm to B position. Add 127mm to A position. Retain both 40mm for both a port/starboard arc.
- Add 32 CAMM
- Add 24 Mk41 cells
- Add 8x NSM (Retain space for 16 canisters)
- Add 2150 and 2087.
- Add a deck crane and improve access between mission spaces.

Can you actually fit all those missiles on a T31? You would probably need to delete the forward boat bay or are we going with a radical Indonesian bow stretch for a forward VLS?
On the gun 57mm and 127mm are duplication. If you want 127mm for NGFS then the 57mm should go.

[Poiuytrewq]

Can you actually fit all those missiles on a T31?

Yes, the Iver Huitfeldt has 32x Mk41 cells and 24x Mk56 cells plus up to 16x AShM canisters.

1CBCF722-AE3B-4285-AE7D-DD3F8767F59C.jpeg

You would probably need to delete the forward boat bay or are we going with a radical Indonesian bow stretch for a forward VLS?

No hull stretching is required. Simply upgrade the weapons and sensors plus reconfigure the mission spaces to ensure maximum connectivity.

The 4 boat bays on the T31 are interesting. Clearly RN don’t really need 4 RHIBs on a Frigate so I suspect one or more will be primarily used for a PODs system if required.

On the gun 57mm and 127mm are duplication. If you want 127mm for NGFS then the 57mm should go.

Maybe but without Phalanx those guns are vital if the CAMM doesn’t hit the mark or in a saturation attack. A layered defence of 57mm and 40mm seems like a solid option and not dissimilar to the IHs 76mm/35mm setup. The 127mm is for NGS and would be little use for small boat swarms or as a CIWS. Hence the 127mm, 57mm and 40mm inclusion.

[tomuk]

Can you actually fit all those missiles on a T31?

Yes, the Iver Huitfeldt has 32x Mk41 cells and 24x Mk56 cells plus up to 16x AShM canisters.

The Mk56 launchers on IH penetrate down into the area of the forward boat\mission bay/s on T31. You are limited to the central area of deck for the VLS.

[Poiuytrewq]

The Mk56 launchers on IH penetrate down into the area of the forward boat\mission bay/s on T31. You are limited to the central area of deck for the VLS.

Which is exactly the reason why I proposed 24x Mk41 cells and 32x CAMM (quad packed).

[Tempest414]

It is time to move this over to another thread

[donald_of_tokyo]

STAFF NOTICE:
Deleted nearly two pages worth of off-topic posts. Current and future Royal Navy escorts is the topic folks, let's keep it at that.

[tomuk]

The Mk56 launchers on IH penetrate down into the area of the forward boat\mission bay/s on T31. You are limited to the central area of deck for the VLS.

Which is exactly the reason why I proposed 24x Mk41 cells and 32x CAMM (quad packed).

But nobody, apart from maybe Saudi, have put CAMM in Mk41. Heck on T45 we are fitting Mushrooms when arguably Mk41 would give more appropriate flexibility, FCASW and SM3.

[Tempest414]

you are right but it dose not mean it can't be done I would of preferred 16 Mk-41 cells in Type 45 could of given it a great load out of 48 Aster 30 and 64 CAMM plus 8 NSM's or 48 Aster 30 , 32 CAMM , 8 x TLAM and 8 NSM

Type 31 with 32 Mk-41 cells , 8 x NSM and a containerised TAS would be a great ship for EoS and could allow a group of 3 ships to carry 96 x CAMM , 24 x NSM , 24 x Aster 30 and 54 x TLAM