Australian Defence Force

[J. Tattersall]

Let's be clear this has been a humiliation of strategic proportions for France only seven months before its Presidential and parliamentary elections. International relations with France can expect to be difficult for quite a while.

[Scimitar54]

At least until the French have rid themselves of “Macron-omics”, after the Elections.

[Zero Gravitas]

The BBC's analysis has been pretty woeful:

"France's decision to recall its ambassadors is probably unprecedented. The country is America's "oldest ally," as a White House official noted. He said Washington would be engaged with France in the coming days to resolve their differences.

But this looks at the very least like an embarrassing misjudgement by an administration that has promised to work closely with allies."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58604677

Really? Embarrassing misjudgement? Where is the context about China's "wolf warrior" diplomacy towards Australia? How about a pretty basic line suggesting that defence procurement influences your alliances and if you are planning on standing up to China then the US is a more formidable ally by a couple of orders of magnitude than France?

Yesterday the beeb had: "The US and UK are facing growing international criticism over a new security pact signed with Australia."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-58592613

The criticism they quote was solely from China and France.

[inch]

Well what do you expect from pro EU / leftist BBC , so out of touch with people in this country ,that's why they keep getting it wrong and pandering to the left / EU brigade ,ooh USA/ Brexit bad , anything EU / France ,Germany good lol get real

[Scimitar54]

Fifth Columnists !

[TheLoneRanger]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... r-row.html

According to The Times, the AUKUS deal was codenamed Operation Hookless inside Number 10 and was the most closely guarded secret inside government for many years.

Among the tiny number of people in the know – besides the PM – were outgoing Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab, Defence Secretary Ben Wallace, National Security advisor Sir Stephen Lovegrove and First Sea Lord Admiral Sir Tony Radakin.
The clandestine discussions were said by a defence source to be like a scene from a John Le Carré novel.

[SKB]

The deal was done when the UK promised the inmates of Her Majesty's Prison Australia that a early release or a pardon might be considered...

[tomuk]

When asked on the France 2 radio station why his Ambassador to London had not been recalled too, Mr Le Drian suggested there was no need.

Britain was known for its 'permanent opportunism' and Mr Johnson was deemed the 'fifth wheel on the carriage anyway,' said French Foreign Minister Le Drian.

In his furious attack on all three members of the new AUKUS pact – America, Australia and Britain – Mr Le Drian said all had acted disgracefully.

[R686]

The deal was done when the UK promised the inmates of Her Majesty's Prison Australia that a early release or a pardon might be considered...

[Defiance]

When asked on the France 2 radio station why his Ambassador to London had not been recalled too, Mr Le Drian suggested there was no need.

Britain was known for its 'permanent opportunism' and Mr Johnson was deemed the 'fifth wheel on the carriage anyway,' said French Foreign Minister Le Drian.

In his furious attack on all three members of the new AUKUS pact – America, Australia and Britain – Mr Le Drian said all had acted disgracefully.

They must have really been hurt when Australia approached us to try get nukes than them

[J. Tattersall]

One wonders how different it might have been if the contract for the 12 Shortfin Barracuda/ Attack class boats had been going well, rather than being one of escalating time, cost and complexity? Perhaps the Aussies might have been willing to accept some of the SSKs and have the balance delivered as SSNs.

What isn't often mentioned in the press is that Le Drian was French defence minister when the Barracuda class contract was negotiated and signed with Australia. So a lot of responsibility must rest on his shoulders.

[inch]

Also wondering how much UK plc work will come uk way ? If weapons, systems,and choose Virginia class as base with us reactor tech ,it would be near as 100% win for America and maybe only help training coming uk way ?

[R686]

One wonders how different it might have been if the contract for the 12 Shortfin Barracuda/ Attack class boats had been going well, rather than being one of escalating time, cost and complexity? Perhaps the Aussies might have been willing to accept some of the SSKs and have the balance delivered as SSNs.

What isn't often mentioned in the press is that Le Drian was French defence minister when the Barracuda class contract was negotiated and signed with Australia. So a lot of responsibility must rest on his shoulders.

No one will know for certain, but if the cost and timetable and risk didn’t blow out we would not be where we are

12 boats didn’t mean 12 in the water

[J. Tattersall]

For those following the AUKUS controversy on Twitter it does seem to me that in Britain the debate seems to divide itself along Brexit Remainer / Leaver lines (e.g. @CER_IanBond) Something I must say I feel very sad about.

I must say I don't like the Daily Telegraph but this article by Prof Vernon Bogdanor last month does now seem quite prescient https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tele ... tish/amp/

[SKB]

(Binkov's Battlegrounds) 16th September 2021

This newsflash video goes in depth on the biggest piece of news in geopolitics in years. A new military alliance in the Pacific created. And kickstarted by Australia getting nuclear fueled submarines. To find out more, watch the video!

And this video hasn't aged well....

[Caribbean]

The Mail is claiming that Australia will consider leasing US subs to fill the gap between now and the first Oz-built subs hitting the water. Also stating that the reactor tech was the game-changer, as the fact that the reactor could last the life of the boat means that there is no need to develop a domestic nuclear industry, which brought the Labour Party on-board

[R686]

The Mail is claiming that Australia will consider leasing US subs to fill the gap between now and the first Oz-built subs hitting the water. Also stating that the reactor tech was the game-changer, as the fact that the reactor could last the life of the boat means that there is no need to develop a domestic nuclear industry, which brought the Labour Party on-board

Highly unlikely unless the US crew the reactor spaces, cant see the RAN being ready for at least 5 years to get proper pipeline in place, i suppose it would be a good gig if the RAN just place either UK/US reactor schools for initial employment training. But I imagine all this will become in-house at some time in the future

I cant verify any of this, but it seems from this fellow on reddit that Nuclear Power School lasts about 18mths


Also I found this online gives a bit of information what prospective student need to learn

Nuclear Power School Prospective Junior Officer Student Information

https://www.navsea.navy.mil/Portals/103 ... -Sep20.pdf

[Zero Gravitas]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58614229.amp

“ When they have picked themselves up from their humiliation, the French will need to gather their sangfroid and confront some cruel verities.
Number one: there is no sentiment in geostrategy.
The French must see there is no point in wailing about having been shoddily treated. They were.
But who ever heard of a nation short-changing its defence priorities out of not wanting to give offence? The fact is that the Australians calculated they had underestimated the Chinese threat and so needed to boost their level of deterrence.
They acted with steely disregard for French concerns but, when it comes to the crunch, that is what nations do. It is almost the definition of a nation: a group of people who have come together to defend their own interests. Their own, not others'.”

In contrast to my moan about the beeb up above…

[R686]

Well it seems like the French want to push back and look at compensation, fair enough if this defence connect article is true it seems our liability for cancellation is a $404 million cancellation fee

https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/marit ... f-sea-1000

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... ll-be-lost

The contract with France was written with several built-in escape clauses. Although the details remain secret, the Australian National Audit Office said the agreement “contains rights, remedies and incentives, including protections, ‘control gates’ in the form of mandated system reviews based on defined exit and entry criteria, and establishes contractual off-ramps”.

The ABC reported in 2019 that the confidential overarching contract – the strategic partnering agreement – would see Australia pay about $400m if it pulled out after the design was completed but before a submarine was completed.

Cheap price to pay if we are going to end up with a submarine that is better than what was proposed

But the French are doing what the French typical do when the throw the baby out with the bath water, seems they want to emulate the Chinese

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/fr ... d=msedgntp

France is seeking to intercept Europe-Australia's Free Trade Agreement by asking EU countries to reconsider the deal in retaliation to the Morrison government scrapping the $90 billion submarine deal.

Didn't work for the chinese really the French think its going to work with them

[J. Tattersall]

Well it seems like the French want to push back and look at compensation, fair enough if this defence connect article is true it seems our liability for cancellation is a $404 million cancellation fee

By my calculation that's just over £200 million, so relatively modest.

[Lord Jim]

We could see RAN personnel aboard Royal Navy SSNs in the near future I hope, in order for them to start gaining experience, after having gone through the RN's Submariner rain Course first. The same should also be happening with the USN, regardless of where they go for their new boats. AS for leasing a USN submarine, it would have to be a Los Angeles class as they haven't got enough Virginias to meet the USN needs.

[Defiance]

We could see RAN personnel aboard Royal Navy SSNs in the near future I hope, in order for them to start gaining experience, after having gone through the RN's Submariner rain Course first. The same should also be happening with the USN, regardless of where they go for their new boats. AS for leasing a USN submarine, it would have to be a Los Angeles class as they haven't got enough Virginias to meet the USN needs.

If they were happy to wait for SSKs then they'll be even more happy to wait for SSNs. They aren't about to rush into operating nuc boats without a real solid baseline of experience.

They'll probably do what we've done with E-7 crews (Aus partners on our boats and gaining experience through responsibility) for a long time. They need to chew through how we/US do things and combine that with their operational thinking to generate their own procedures.

[seaspear]

This article provides some details of the ongoing issues the Australian government faced with the canceled submarine project ,of perhaps interest is an earlier report calling for its cancellation by a former U.S. secretary of the navy David Winter in 2018 of the French submarine project in a report previously made public if France was blindsided by this and were not taking this seriously they were asleep certainly this concern was raised in its own parliament this year
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-paci ... 021-09-21/

[TheLoneRanger]

The USA / UK and Australia need to let the French have their tantrum and give them nothing in return as nothing is due. The French dropped the ball on this - why should their be any compensation or "favours" to "buy them off" ?

[RunningStrong]

The USA / UK and Australia need to let the French have their tantrum and give them nothing in return as nothing is due. The French dropped the ball on this - why should their be any compensation or "favours" to "buy them off" ?

Whether you like it or not, the majority of UK ISTAR capability (Optics, acoustics) and Sonar engineering capability is partially owned by the French state...