Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

[inch]

sounds like there just going to copy france ie 8 fremm 5 fayette uk 8 t26 5 smaller class ,does anybody agree ? I could be wrong

[WhitestElephant]

The new frigate is merely described as being lighter and more affordable than the T26. That doesn't necessarily mean a light frigate (i.e La Fayette). I predict something along the lines of the Italian PPA. Though less snazzy.

sounds like there just going to copy france ie 8 fremm 5 fayette uk 8 t26 5 smaller class ,does anybody agree ? I could be wrong

Yes, some obvious benchmarking going on. Although we do have 6 T45s as opposed to their 2 Horizon.

[Digger22]

There's no mention of the number of these proposed light Frigates, just that these will be used to INCREASE the number beyond 19 hulls.

[inch]

would that mean they really are scaling back there ambition ?suppose new equipment got to be paid for somehow

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

You're wrong. 8 T26's + 5 Light Frigates = 13. 13 Frigates + 6 T45 Destroyers = 19 Frigates & Destroyers.

Future fleet:
6x T45
8x T26
5x Light Frigate
Total: 19

No one can say who is right or wrong for sure at the moment. There is too much conflicting info floating around and not enough specifics nor clarity. Read one article it suggests one thing, read another it suggests something to the contrary.

[SKB]

I didn't read or wiki this stuff. I watched and listened to Cameron live in the Commons. It was 6x T45, 8x T26, 5x Light Frigates. Total = 19.

Note that 8x T26 + 5 Light Frigates = 13. Thirteen was the original number of T26's hoped for, to replace the thirteen T23's on a one-for-one basis.
Obviously, there isn't the money available for 13x T26's, so only 8 were ordered. Five cheaper "Light Frigates" will be built to reach the 13.

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

I didn't read or wiki this stuff. I watched and listened to Cameron live in the Commons. It was 6x T45, 8x T26, 5x Light Frigates. Total = 19.

Nothing i have encountered has yet confirmed that so unless he specifically, unequivocally stated that exact set of numbers with resounding finality (?) we simply do not know for sure.

[Digger22]

Yep, I'm completely confused. I don't see how designing a whole new class would be cheaper than building 13 T26?. Surely unit cost would come down, shipyard would be able to budget etc, etc, and that's before we think about continuity benefits/maintenance of operating the same basic type?. I hope these are additional to T26 and not instead of.

[SKB]

I would hope its not a completely new class of new "Light Frigate", because that would involve years more designing, planning and testing alongside the T26 programme. Instead a "T26L", (basically same design as a regular T26) but with some of the 'optional extras' missing would be preferable.

[Gabriele]

Oh, for crap's sake.

So, let's try again:

8 Type 26, all ASW, followed by at least 5 of these "light frigates" to deliver a minimum of 13 frigates, and aspirationally more than that.

[Tony Williams]

This is what the SDSR actually says - it's on the web, here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... b_only.pdf

Type 45 destroyers, Type 23 frigates, Astute Class submarines and Mine Countermeasure Vessels.
We will maintain one of the most capable anti-submarine fleets in the world with the introduction of eight advanced Type 26 Global Combat Ships, which will start to replace our current Type 23 frigates in their anti-submarine role. We will maintain our fleet of 19 frigates and destroyers. We will also launch a concept study and then design and build a new class of lighter, flexible general purpose frigates so that by the 2030s we can further increase the total number
of frigates and destroyers. These general purpose frigates are also likely to offer increased export potential. We will buy two further new Offshore Patrol Vessels, increasing the Royal Navy’s ability to defend UK interests at home and abroad.

[inch]

bbc news Scotland reporting reduction to 8 t26 and another smaller class, folks ,

[SKB]

David Cameron:

We will also launch a concept study and then design and build a new class of lighter, flexible general purpose frigates so that by the 2030s we can further increase the total number of frigates and destroyers.

So yes, its a completely new design then. Its not a "T26L". More like a "T27"

[Foxbat]

I think you're potentially reading a bit too literally there. Because the way it's worded could equally mean a modified T26 design not necessarily a brand new from the keel up design.

[WhitestElephant]

Meh... at-least we're actually discussing a new class of frigate. Because it so easily could have been 8 x T26 and... nothing else...

[Ron5]

Meh... at-least we're actually discussing a new class of frigate. Because it so easily could have been 8 x T26 and... nothing else...

He's forced to say 13 to keep the SNP from ripping him limb from limb. His commit to at least 5 extra ain't worth poop.

[O5C4R]

I think you're potentially reading a bit too literally there. Because the way it's worded could equally mean a modified T26 design not necessarily a brand new from the keel up design.

Lot's of confusion really from all this.

There seems to be a lot of ' analysts ' running around saying that despite the carefully prepared speech, written for a Prime Minister in one of the most important SDSR's that we should forget the wording - it's wrong and that they have a mate in Govan who says it is actually 5 GP T26's that will be built. - Yes I'm looking at you UK Defense Journal.

It's quite clear in black and white. NEW CLASS - not design, CHEAPER THAN T26's - so not a cheap T26 then or different variant. Etc etc.

We are only getting 8 T26's. Full stop. Then at some point in a different governments tenure we've been promised something that's not quite as good, but will magically induce other countries to crave it, despite the ones who need new designs having run out of patience years before and going somewhere else.

Smoke, mirrors and stupidity everywhere today.

[shark bait]

His commit to at least 5 extra ain't worth poop.

Of course it isn't, it will be happening around 2030 mark when Dave and George will be sunning them selves in florida. I don't think we can take it as gospel yet, there's plenty of time for future leadership to change their minds.

Can we assume all this talk means the T26 is going to cost waaayyy more than it should?

[SKB]

Can we assume all this talk means the T26 is going to cost waaayyy more than it should?

Needed 13. Got 8. Go figure.

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

I think you're potentially reading a bit too literally there. Because the way it's worded could equally mean a modified T26 design not necessarily a brand new from the keel up design.

Lot's of confusion really from all this.

There seems to be a lot of ' analysts ' running around saying that despite the carefully prepared speech, written for a Prime Minister in one of the most important SDSR's that we should forget the wording - it's wrong and that they have a mate in Govan who says it is actually 5 GP T26's that will be built. - Yes I'm looking at you UK Defense Journal.

It's quite clear in black and white. NEW CLASS - not design, CHEAPER THAN T26's - so not a cheap T26 then or different variant. Etc etc.

We are only getting 8 T26's. Full stop. Then at some point in a different governments tenure we've been promised something that's not quite as good, but will magically induce other countries to crave it, despite the ones who need new designs having run out of patience years before and going somewhere else.

Smoke, mirrors and stupidity everywhere today.

I had been wondering about that part too. There were once similarly high hopes for the T26 - hopes which were supposedly to keep the build costs under control and allow us to purchase the previously required (potentially still required) 13 hulls. Hasn't exactly worked out on that front it would now seem. Moreover, who says these countries are going to be prepared to wait until 2030 for new ships?

AFAIK most of the tenders we hoped to pursue with the T26 were also meant to occur around the 2020 timeframe. With the new Light Frigate the government would have to expect/hope potential customers would delay their acuqisitions for at least another five years to take them out to 2020 so that we at least had a product to show them...can't say i am optimistic.

Like i said, we have been down this road with the T26 and, perhaps prematurely, can't see why i would be any different with this new light frigate proposal.

[Gabriele]

Look at it this way: in no way was a government going to sign today a single, all-inclusive contract for 13 ships due from early 2020 into the second half of 2030s. Whatever they say today, there are too many SDSRs and elections in the middle for being in any way sure of what the final result will be like.

Same for F-35: getting to 138 will take further contracts in future parliaments that might or might not happen.

Same even for the retention of C-130J, which already is within another parliament.

If you thought today would write the final word, you were dreaming. It never was going to.

[SKB]

So the eight T26's are going to be purely ASW, with the five 'Light Frigates' used for general purpose ?

[Ron5]

Can we assume all this talk means the T26 is going to cost waaayyy more than it should?

Can we assume all this talk means the T26 is going to cost more than a bunch of arts graduate, technically illiterate, Treasury assholes and their brethren in the UK press that are recipient of their leaks, and the dumb ass readers of the resultant fish and chip wrappers, think it should?

There fixed it for you.

[Ron5]

So the eight T26's are going to be purely ASW, with the five 'Light Frigates' used for general purpose ?

A better question might be: WTF is a general purpose?

[Gabriele]

So the eight T26's are going to be purely ASW, with the five 'Light Frigates' used for general purpose ?

A better question might be: WTF is a general purpose?

Up to this day it was going to be a Type 26 without towed sonar. One would assume it could be a less armed ship, with less demanding silent running requirements, with CAMM and a medium calibre gun and confirmed long endurance (both in legs and logistical endurance out at sea).

Before the Type 26 came and unified the ASW and GP requirements in the same class, the Navy had already been working on a two-tier idea, with C1 delivering up to 10 high-end ASW frigates and C2 delivering some 8 cheaper vessels for the vast range of tasks which are not suited to OPVs (the kind of unarmed, hangar-less the Navy is forced to procure, at least) but do not require a fully optimized vessel.

Today, the 5 GP are Type 23s which have lost their original towed sonar when only 8 Type 2087 sonar sets were procured. 8 + 5 is today's situation, would have been tomorrow's with the Type 26 and is now the future with the light frigate. With a hope of procuring a few more than just 5, if possible.

The italian navy has just ordered 7 PPA vessels for some 3,6 billion euro. They come with ample mission space, well over 30 knots speed, 127mm gun, 76mm gun-CIWS, hangar large enough for a couple of NH90 and, in the "Full" configuration, anti-ship missiles and 16 Sylver cells for Aster missiles. 4-faces fixed AESA radar mast, decoys and 2x 25mm guns. The mission space below the flight deck allows addition of a towed sonar, if ever required.



It is not impossible to procure capable ships at acceptable price.

This might also become an opportunity to think about what "frigates" really do these days, and perhaps come up with a new kind of vessel, particularly if, in the next years, the unmanned vehicles make all the progress that can be expected.