F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Which year was it when we last saw such a clear answer: "Yes."
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

serge750
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by serge750 »

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: well we did have a blue moon last month

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Old RN
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Old RN »

There is a report (Mirror?) that the F35B order will be capped at 69. That could make sense as it could mean 4 frontline squadrons (4x12), an OCU and deep maintenance squadron of 18 and the 3 development a/c in USA?
Then you have two squadrons assigned to the deployed carrier, one squadron for the carrier in the home waters and one reserve?

dmereifield
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by dmereifield »

Old RN wrote:There is a report (Mirror?) that the F35B order will be capped at 69. That could make sense as it could mean 4 frontline squadrons (4x12), an OCU and deep maintenance squadron of 18 and the 3 development a/c in USA?
Then you have two squadrons assigned to the deployed carrier, one squadron for the carrier in the home waters and one reserve?
Would be somewhat of a relief if we end up with as many as 69, but it of course depends on the timeframe. If we manage to get 4 frontline squadrons concurrently available that certainly would be a pleasant surprise and give us a realistic chance of being able to deploy a decent airwing (ca. 20 UK F35B) on a regular basis

Repulse
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Repulse »

I’m wondering if a deal has been done to cap the F35b to match CEPP requirements only, ensuring all a/c will be dedicated to the carriers, with the promise of future Tempest jam to the RAF. TBH, that would be a bigger win for the RN/FAA than give or take a few airframes.

Personally, I think a 3 x 18 a/c first line squadron model would be optimal - rotating each and having the ability to provide a 36 a/c surge relatively quickly.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

Aethulwulf
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Aethulwulf »

If it is capped at 69, that would most likely mean just 3 front line squadrons of 12, plus an OCU of 12.
Other 12 aircraft would be in deep maintenance and 6 war reserves/replacements + the 3 test aircraft.

To operate 4 front line squadrons, the total number would need to be around 80 to 90 aircraft.

serge750
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by serge750 »

[quote="Repulse"]I’m wondering if a deal has been done to cap the F35b to match CEPP requirements only, ensuring all a/c will be dedicated to the carriers, with the promise of future Tempest jam to the RAF. TBH, that would be a bigger win for the RN/FAA than give or take a few airframes.

It does sound plausible it would be so good for the RN plus the RAF could come to the rescue when a surge is needed :D :D win win

Would the F35's last till the end of the QEC life span?

I would really like to see after the 69 (?) are bought a couple more bought every year to replace the early ones & keep up to date with the latest mods & then you can work them really hard without having to worry too much about the harshness of life at sea, bit expensive but whats a 150m in the MOD budget and may placate the USA as we committed to buy 138

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2HeadsBetter
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by 2HeadsBetter »

"Would the F35's last till the end of the QEC life span?" - Depends when you buy them!

topman
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by topman »

At the risk of being a broken record, it's not so much the total number but how many we are prepared to support on deployment that will matter.
That's where the real costs come in.

serge750
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by serge750 »

Was hoping with the support for "Global Britain" the powers that be, may support routine deployments of 24 (UK) x F35 on the QEC deployments, hence using them hard & buying a few more regularly to replace the hardest used/early ones, but as you say if they do not commit to the carrier group then ….

Jdam
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Jdam »

I think 12 will be the standard amount on the carriers.

Interesting if you think about it, the f-35 line will be open for decades to come, this might make some people think we can run our numbers close to the limit and buy more later if needed. In a sense kicking the costs further down the line.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by seaspear »

On a forty-year lfe span of the carriers which are much longer than the flying hours for the f35b if you replace at end of life the aircraft with a similar replacement f35b you could end up with the original number of aircraft as discussed of 148 to maintain that capability for the aircraft carrier

Scimitar54
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Scimitar54 »

Two points

1) The Carriers have an expected 50 year lifespan (not 40).
2) The original agreed number of F35B was 138 (not 148).

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by seaspear »

Scimitar54 wrote:Two points

1) The Carriers have an expected 50 year lifespan (not 40).
2) The original agreed number of F35B was 138 (not 148).
I stand corrected

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

I think, like other that 12 is going to he the standard number of F-35Bs operating from our active Carrier. These will routinely be supplemented either by additional UK aircraft or detachments for other allied operators of the F-35B. IF an emergency high intensity conflict arises, like in the Falklands War an additional Squadron could be formed for the OCU, stored aircraft, with aircrew coming from the former as well as students who have completed most of the course.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Scimitar54 »

To rely on OCU pilots and planes to form a second front line (Carrier) squadron is total folly as a plan. If the deployment (or deployments) become protracted with perhaps some losses, then the means of training additional pilots WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE! :mrgreen:

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by seaspear »

In regard to the number of aircraft carried aboard the carrier it could be
in the future or under development that a number of u.a.v.,s will be launched to accompany the f35b and controlled by such
https://www.businessinsider.com/drones- ... ?r=AU&IR=T
this earlier article did not provide details of the mission capability aimed for with this type of aircraft ,the discussions have always been on the numbers of the f35b and rotary units but not the possibility of how many uav,s may also be included not forgetting, of course, we don't know how large such a craft would be and its footprint on the carrier

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

seaspear wrote:In regard to the number of aircraft carried aboard the carrier it could be
in the future or under development that a number of u.a.v.,s will be launched to accompany the f35b and controlled by such
https://www.businessinsider.com/drones- ... ?r=AU&IR=T
this earlier article did not provide details of the mission capability aimed for with this type of aircraft ,the discussions have always been on the numbers of the f35b and rotary units but not the possibility of how many uav,s may also be included not forgetting, of course, we don't know how large such a craft would be and its footprint on the carrier
Loyal wingman.

Scimitar54
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Scimitar54 »

Whether Manned or Unmanned, a Loyal Wingman is required. :mrgreen:

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by seaspear »

Loyal wingman as I understand takes off a conventional runway,the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carriers with their ramps would likely require something very different

Lord Jim
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

Scimitar54 wrote:To rely on OCU pilots and planes to form a second front line (Carrier) squadron is total folly as a plan. If the deployment (or deployments) become protracted with perhaps some losses, then the means of training additional pilots WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE!
Read the post, the OCU assets would be used to form an add hoc third operational squadron in an emergency.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Scimitar54 »

My comments are still valid and stand on their own merit. :mrgreen:

Lord Jim
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

Well that is how it was done in the Falklands war to reinforce the Task Force's Sea Harrier fleet, So someone somewhere is probably dusting off those plans just in case.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Scimitar54 »

Idesputable, but it was not a significantly protracted operation, nor were the losses really significant and at that moment in time, it was our only available option, unless you believe that we should either have risked operational failure or called the whole thing off. Just because we “got away with it” does not recommend itself to be the planned option of choice.

We should all be vey wary indeed of those who make a virtue out of necessity. :mrgreen:

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by BlueD954 »

https://questions-statements.parliament ... -17/116526

The current agreed F35-B Lightning procurement profile will see the UK reach 48 aircraft in Quarter four 2025. This delivery schedule has been developed to support the F35-B Lightning force generation build profile and the Carrier Enabled Power Projection (CEPP) milestone requirements. In December 2023, when Full Operational Capability (FOC) Carrier Strike is scheduled to be declared, the UK F35-B Lightning Force will have a total of 37 F35-B Lightning aircraft which will support two front line squadrons and the Operational Conversion Unit. The full complement, of 48 aircraft, will be available when the CEPP FOC milestone is reached in 2026. These figures include the three 17 Squadron UK F35-B Lightning aircraft base at Edwards Air Force Base in California, to conduct Test and Evaluation.

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