Section Infantry Weapons

[mr.fred]

In 2004 the H&K caseless telescoped round was licensed to US who further developed round using a plastic case, presume seeing result in above video.

Seems unlikely.
I can’t see the logic in licensing a caseless round and putting a case on it and the US has been working on telescoped round for decades.

[ArmChairCivvy]

BAE bought company and later sold it on.

I guess as a favour to HMG as they had first been offered the deal for much less than the sum what it cost for H&K to put our bulpups right (design changes, then manufactured for the remanufacture of the actual assault rifles)

US Army buying many billions of plastic 6.8 rounds

Watching the video that thought came to mind, leaving the battle fields messy (but then again, when are they not left messy)
- on the ranges one can just rake them off

[NickC]

US Army buying many billions of plastic 6.8 rounds

Watching the video that thought came to mind, leaving the battle fields messy (but then again, when are they not left messy)
- on the ranges one can just rake them off

Think the plastic case would preclude any chance of 6.8 round being adopted in Western European eg here in UK considering how popular is Sir David Attenborough's anti-plastic campain and how strong the Greens are in Germany.

[ArmChairCivvy]

and how strong the Greens are in Germany.

Well considering
first of all, that Kaliningrad was founded as a military fortress in 1255 after the Prussian Crusade by the Teutonic Knights,
and second
that the Greens were one of the driving forces to get INF (a good thing in itself)
and third
that INF was dropped because Russia, without declaring, positioned exactly the INF-like weapons in that present-day fortress
... fourth: should one ask them about what their policy is, wrt. both of the things (nukes on their doorstep and plastic left in the 'field'?

Mind you, we are not in Germany... so who should we ask then?

[Lord Jim]

Reminds me of the Swedish "Lead Free" bullets they now use!

[BlueD954]

https://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTIC ... HTML&src=0

II.2.4)
Description of the procurement:
The International Guns Missiles and Rockets Project Team (IGMR PT) which is part of the United Kingdom Ministry of Defence is intending to place an ad-hoc tasking contract with Dynamit Nobel Defence (DND) (the company) for the ASM Weapon System.

ASM is a man-portable disposable, shoulder-launched weapon system based on an open Davis Gun principle. It launches a projectile with a tandem dual-function warhead for use against a variety of targets. On firing, a central propellant charge ignites and forces the projectile out of the launcher with a muzzle velocity of approximately 200ms-1. As a reaction, a 'gel' counter-mass is expelled from the rear of the weapon; this minimises recoil, allowing firing from confined spaces. The high muzzle velocity coupled with thrust from a 'Sustainer Rocket Motor' enables accurate shot placement at ranges of between 15 m and 400 m.

[ArmChairCivvy]

As a reaction, a 'gel' counter-mass is expelled from the rear of the weapon; this minimises recoil, allowing firing from confined spaces.

Called countermass; the Germans make one of those, with 'filaments' whatever they might be made of (the Finns had a prototype decades ago)
- I forget what principle is in use for the one from Sweden that has actually been bought by other countries (for launch from within confined spaces)

[mr.fred]

Called countermass; the Germans make one of those, with 'filaments' whatever they might be made of (the Finns had a prototype decades ago)
- I forget what principle is in use for the one from Sweden that has actually been bought by other countries (for launch from within confined spaces)

Also known as the Davis gun principle like it says.
Using a counter mass rather than just venting propellant* gives the confined space capability due to conservation of momentum. propellant is very light so to balance the momentum of the projectile you need very high speeds and you get high pressures and temperatures as a result. By comparison a large mass needn’t go so fast, but you don’t want to throw a solid lump around because that would be dangerous. A pack of small and light particles is better as they have a poor ballistic coefficient and will slow down rapidly, which reduces the danger area. Using a water-based gel is better still if you can get it to atomise as the spray has a poor ballistic coefficient and you can use it to take some of the thermal energy out of the backblast by phase change (boiling/evaporation).

Using a sustainer motor is interesting as I didn’t know that the ASM did that.

* like how many other recoilless guns/launchers do.

[ArmChairCivvy]

light particles [is] better as they have a poor ballistic coefficient and will slow down rapidly, which reduces the danger area.

This https://modernfirearms.net/en/grenade-l ... brust-eng/ is the one I was thinking about, uses polymer flakes (1 m zone behind the launcher, only!)
- though if you are not John Rambo (who fired a LAW from within a helicopter?), it is still a good idea to open the windows on both sides of a VW Beatle, so that one can fit in also after firing from inside the car

[BlueD954]

light particles [is] better as they have a poor ballistic coefficient and will slow down rapidly, which reduces the danger area.

This https://modernfirearms.net/en/grenade-l ... brust-eng/ is the one I was thinking about, uses polymer flakes (1 m zone behind the launcher, only!)
- though if you are not John Rambo (who fired a LAW from within a helicopter?), it is still a good idea to open the windows on both sides of a VW Beatle, so that one can fit in also after firing from inside the car

Pardon me, which member of an infantry section carries the ASM?

[ArmChairCivvy]

All of them
"One of ASM-DT assault rifle prototypes, with underwater magazine and additional equipment (above) and with standard "above water" magazine(below) Caliber: 5.45 mm "
except that frogmen don't work in sections

[NickC]

Further checked out the new US Army 6.8mm round

One of the three finalists in the US Army competition is Sig Sauer who have released civilian variant of their 6.8 round, said to be downloaded variant, the 277 Sig Fury, its case dimensions based on the current NATO 7.62x51/308 Winchester. To take the very high pressures 6.8 needs a unique composite case with the head of case made of stainless steel with connector washer to hold brass case, thou overall case same length as 7.62 (possibility of galvanic corrosion?) Fury case looks like slightly longer in body with shorter neck so as to stop shooters loading into 308 firearms, you can imagine if the Fury round fitted in a 308 chamber the $billions in damages Sig would be paying out in US

Have not seen the SAAMI pressure figure of the 277 Sig Fury, highest US magnum pressure cartridges measured by SAMMI ~66,000psi, 7.62 spec'd at ~60,000psi, but to meet US Army specs of high lethality to overcome soldier body armour the 6.8 needing 3,000fps from 16" barrel, actual pressure needed will be in order of 90,000 psi.

Result this round will be more powerful with better ballistics and plus more recoil than the standard 7.62 eg the FN 7.62 bullet uses a 143.5 gr bullet, the Fury uses 135/140gr bullets, so this is not an intermediate round as the original 7.92 Kurz and the British 280/30, Soviet 7.62 x 39, and 5.56, but a full power round which raises the question of how will soldier be able control rifle in full auto mode which proved impossible with the L1A1 SLR/FN FAL with the 7.62?

The 6.8 rifles specs call for recoil to near M4/M16 levels, with its high power round rifles will be complicated and therefore expensive, also pushing the limit as 50% higher pressure will be hard on the action and also higher heat toasting the barrel, which won't come cheap, found limited info on rifles but the Sig Sauer rifle comes with a reciprocating barrel.

The other two finalists are General Dynamics and Textron, GD has a bullpup design which allows 22" barrel and still meet the OAL rifle length limit, uses a totally new polymer cased round which gives 35% reduction in weight compared to standard round, also presume marginally lower pressure required to meet 3,000 fps than the Sig round with longer barrel than the 16" of the Sig. Textron with help from Heckler and Koch using a plastic cased telescoped round.

US Army will award winner an order for 100,000 rifles but no with guarantee that rifle will adopted as standard issue, always option to remain with 5.56 and 7.62 as expect many countries will.

[ArmChairCivvy]

US Army will award winner an order for 100,000 rifles but no with guarantee that rifle will adopted as standard issue

And when might that be?

[ArmChairCivvy]

LJ was happy with our heavy bulpup, accurate to 600 mtrs.

Not to raise any issue with that, rather than taking it as 'the max' for the current std issue rifles w/o changing the round, this is quite interesting, with its folding buttstock:
https://modernfirearms.net/en/sniper-ri ... e-338-eng/
- so the carry part of it sort of solved

But there is still the 'dead zone' out to 800 mtrs which the DMR in every squad should be able to reach
- so the 556 is not the answer; what is the answer

[Lord Jim]

I suppose it depends what you believe the distance an average soldier needs to be able to engage the enemy as well as what is the likely distance. A lot of the reasoning behind the US Army's desire for the 6.8mm is to be able to penetrate current and future Russian (and probably Chinese) Body Armour at long range, 800+. This is very consistent with the current trend for wanting to totally "Overmatch" any opposition no matter the cost.

What is going to be interesting is whether the US can get the rest of NATO to agree that this should be the new calibre to replace the 5.56, given the fact that many nations have only very recently adopted new small arms in that calibre. Maybe 6.8mm could become the new standard NATO calibre for support weapons such as DMRs, LMGs and GPMGs, replacing the 7.62mm, an an interim option.

What is interesting as well is the fact that the UK's decision to upgrade the L85 as against buying a new rifle may have been the right decision all along.

[Lord Jim]

LJ was happy with our heavy bulpup, accurate to 600 mtrs.

Not to raise any issue with that, rather than taking it as 'the max' for the current std issue rifles w/o changing the round, this is quite interesting, with its folding buttstock:
https://modernfirearms.net/en/sniper-ri ... e-338-eng/
- so the carry part of it sort of solved

But there is still the 'dead zone' out to 800 mtrs which the DMR in every squad should be able to reach
- so the 556 is not the answer; what is the answer

Our AI .338 L115A3 and A4 Sniper Rifles do the same job and they are part of what some see as the best precision marksman team set ups there is in the world, for once we got it right. The current rifles also have a foldable stock for ease of carrying and each paring also carries a 7.62 L129A1 Sniper Support Weapon, basically a M129A1 DMR but with a far better Schmitt and Bender scope.

[J. Tattersall]

What is interesting as well is the fact that the UK's decision to upgrade the L85 as against buying a new rifle may have been the right decision all along.

Surely that's not in keeping with the tone of this forum, which is to criticise UK defence decisions at every possible opportunity.

[ArmChairCivvy]

that's not in keeping with the tone of this forum, which is to criticise UK defence decisions at every possible opportunity.

Because of HK's key role in making it work, perhaps I'm allowed to diverge from Forum rules (everything in English) and say
"Ubung macht Meister". Namely
"was praised for its accuracy [as per LJ, upthread] when it worked properly, but that was nowhere near often enough. A number of fixes were implemented to address the most severe problems, but the L85A1 continued to have problems throughout the 1990s. In 1998, German small arms manufacturer Heckler and Koch received a contract to modify L85A1s to the L85A2 standard, incorporating further changes designed to boost reliability.

In 2016, the British Army began converting rifles to the -A3 standard."
- three strikes... and the L85 is still 'in'

Of course you would know that all rational decision making is done 'at the margin' so in that sense the upgrade was the right decision
= hold the fort, and see where 'the big boys' are going with ARs/ SAWs

But let's not forget the backdrop:
"The L85A3 of today is an accurate and reliable weapon, but it took the UK government too long to correct the problems. Over the years the British Army has spent a total of $461 per rifle to make the weapon reliable, which is almost enough to [have] completely replaced the rifles with [brand new] M4 carbines"

Those interested in all the twists and turns can enjoy a read here:
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... lure-93001

[mr.fred]

Over the life of the L85 the Americans have replaced their armalite rifles two or three times

[ArmChairCivvy]

Yeah, but they worked from get-go
... except in muddy places.

Vietnam was well over by the time L85 entered service and perhaps there was a lesson learned, namely though the gas piston, rotating bolt design [...] was in many ways based on the U.S. designed Armalite AR-18 rifle[but it featured] adjustable gas system with positions for normal use, adverse conditions, and launching rifle grenades.
- taken from the same source I linked to above

Anyway, let's have some juicy stories from that side of the Atlantic - as they do abound

[NickC]

US Army will award winner an order for 100,000 rifles but no with guarantee that rifle will adopted as standard issue

And when might that be?

The US Army in the summer carried out diagnostic tests for temperature, dust, water immersion, as well as drop tests, sound profile testing, accuracy, round dispersion, cook-off and endurance tests. Spring 2021 is set to be the start of the competitive record tests, so presuming contract award sometime late 2021?

Lake City arsenal have manufactured nearly a million projectiles (bullets), details and weight not disclosed, thou understand due to environmental impact no lead, so while previously thought it would be 135/140 gr bullet now maybe ~110gr, the plus as it will reduce recoil, the minus inferior ballistics.

US Army also state plastic and polymer is relatively inert and doesn’t really interact with the environment, referring to the rounds used in the GD bullpup rifle, polymer with metallic head, its certainly different especially as virtually no neck which would have thought would enhance neck erosion in barrel. The Textron rifle using a plastic cased telescoped coke can round, Heckler and Koch involved with Textron so assuming its a development of the H&K 4.73 x 33 caseless telescoped round manufactured by Winchester, might be wrong.

[ArmChairCivvy]

no lead

In the plusses and minuses goes better(?) penetration of body armour
- a driver, but as far as I know... those details are 'unknown'

4.73 x 33

V short; I assume powder or whatever propellant is differently distributed, relative to the 'traditional' design?
- those projectiles (every one will have to use the same) already manufactured, is the length of them known?

[jimthelad]

The M4 is useless at ranges past 200m. Period. The Diameco C5/6/7 series are a bit better and have the option of fitting a longer barrel and the changeable barrel/ breach for 7.62x51. The advantage of lightness, commonality, and easier to clean are in the M4's favour but having used both and the C5, I still like the L85 for range and accuracy. This is personal choice but one bourn from experience. Cue angered rhetoric from the sandbox general.

[Little J]

Those interested in all the twists and turns can enjoy a read here:
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... lure-93001

That article is soooo badly written

I only got a few paragraphs into before I had to stop... I'll try and force myself to read it later

[NickC]

4.73 x 33

V short; I assume powder or whatever propellant is differently distributed, relative to the 'traditional' design?
- those projectiles (every one will have to use the same) already manufactured, is the length of them known?

Apologies, my post badly worded, H&K developed the small intermediate 4.73 x 33 caseless telescoped coke can round for the West German G11 rifle, cancelled, H&K associated with Textron who are using a coke can telescoped round in 6.8 produced by Winchester, difference this time its using a plastic case, so was speculating if H&K caseless tech used or it could be possible H&K tech used in the design of the Textron rifle action.

Textron video pre-dates the 6.8 but assume the basis of their 6.8 rifles and coke can rounds, do wonder how the bolt can make it gas tight on firing, with most rifles the bolt has lugs which lock into the receiver to take the pressure, none present on the Textron bolt as can see in video.