Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

Which Anti-Ship Missile Should be Selected for the Type 26?

Lockheed Martin LRASM
164
52%
Kongsberg NSM
78
25%
Boeing Harpoon Next Gen
44
14%
MBDA Exocet Blk III
21
7%
None (stick to guided ammo and FASGW from Helicopters)
8
3%
 
Total votes: 315

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

dmereifield wrote:Reasonable concern, but since the RN needs an absolute minimum of 8 ASW Frigates (many say this isnt even enough), how can they cut the 5 T26? If they did, they'd need to order at least 5 more T31 that are Tier 1 ASW Frigates. Is it possible to make T31 a tier 1 ASW Frigate? If so, at what cost?
Tempest414 wrote:Two things here do HMG give a shit if the RN has a tier 1 ASW frigate or would it be a lose of face not to have 8 T-26 now the RAN & RCN have gone for it in good numbers.

Next it will be interesting to see what results come from the Danish navy fitting TAS to is IH class this year in fact the first ship should be fitted now and under test if they are sticking to the time scale put forward by them last year

The next step would be a A-140 with two engines and the gen sets rafted this would allow the ship to make way between 12 and 24 knots on two engines and sprint on four
My point is, no money is no money. RN has spent 2B GBP to keep its "19 escorts saga", as T31 (although originally it was intended to be 1.25B GBP including everything (ref. T31 RFI), 2B GBP was allocated... :thumbdown: .)

And, "8 ASW escort" is another saga. How many other "saga" RN has?

At least two large FSSS is needed = "SSS saga".
At least 7 SSN are needed = "SSN saga".
At least 4 SSBN must be there = "SSBN saga".

On this regard, "8 ASW escorts" are only "one of the saga". And not so strong among the other saga, I'm afraid. From here, my fear comes. (I personally think, among these many "saga", the "19 escorts saga" = the rationale for T31, was the least important one. Yet, RN invested on it at first, and the 2B GBP has been gone, putting other "sagas" in even bigger risks).

By the way, Danish IH class with CAPTAS-4 or 4CI is never going to be a tier-1 escort, if we think French FDI "will never be a tier-1 escort". It is in the same class. FDI frigates are even newer in its technology by at least a decade (or even more, because IH's base design, Apsalon dates back to 2004).

dmereifield
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:
dmereifield wrote:Reasonable concern, but since the RN needs an absolute minimum of 8 ASW Frigates (many say this isnt even enough), how can they cut the 5 T26? If they did, they'd need to order at least 5 more T31 that are Tier 1 ASW Frigates. Is it possible to make T31 a tier 1 ASW Frigate? If so, at what cost?
Tempest414 wrote:Two things here do HMG give a shit if the RN has a tier 1 ASW frigate or would it be a lose of face not to have 8 T-26 now the RAN & RCN have gone for it in good numbers.

Next it will be interesting to see what results come from the Danish navy fitting TAS to is IH class this year in fact the first ship should be fitted now and under test if they are sticking to the time scale put forward by them last year

The next step would be a A-140 with two engines and the gen sets rafted this would allow the ship to make way between 12 and 24 knots on two engines and sprint on four
My point is, no money is no money. RN has spent 2B GBP to keep its "19 escorts saga", as T31 (although originally it was intended to be 1.25B GBP including everything (ref. T31 RFI), 2B GBP was allocated... :thumbdown: .)

And, "8 ASW escort" is another saga. How many other "saga" RN has?

At least two large FSSS is needed = "SSS saga".
At least 7 SSN are needed = "SSN saga".
At least 4 SSBN must be there = "SSBN saga".

On this regard, "8 ASW escorts" are only "one of the saga". And not so strong among the other saga, I'm afraid. From here, my fear comes. (I personally think, among these many "saga", the "19 escorts saga" = the rationale for T31, was the least important one. Yet, RN invested on it at first, and the 2B GBP has been gone, putting other "sagas" in even bigger risks).

By the way, Danish IH class with CAPTAS-4 or 4CI is never going to be a tier-1 escort, if we think French FDI "will never be a tier-1 escort". It is in the same class. FDI frigates are even newer in its technology by at least a decade (or even more, because IH's base design, Apsalon dates back to 2004).
I guess the question then would be, is an ASW optimised T31 "good enough"?

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

The short answer is no however a T-31 with the engines and gen sets rafted would be a step closer and could be a so so Tier 2 ASW

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Ron5 wrote:Such thinking led
to cruisers, and then battlecruisers
... all of that equally :D irrelevant

But you do know, from reading these pages, that our next cruisers (namely the AAW ships) will be based on the T-26 hull, no?
- not such a big leap, when you think of it :?: From a global cruiser (via a gold plated ASW vessel) to what in the rest of the world as of now are known as "cruisers"
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

That
" technology by at least a decade (or even more, because IH's base design, Apsalon dates back to 2004."
is like saying the Ticos are no good as they were put to sea in a hurry, using the Spruance hull. Or HMS Ocean using the Invincibles' hull... probably the strongest design point?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

jonas
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by jonas »

Batch 2 :-

"
DE&S T26 Batch 2 Prop Motors - RN Model Procurement & Commercial Used to support the decision to bring-forward the procurement of propulsion motors in support of the Type 26 Batch 2 manufacture.
"


https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... april-2020

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

jonas wrote:Batch 2 :-

"
DE&S T26 Batch 2 Prop Motors - RN Model Procurement & Commercial Used to support the decision to bring-forward the procurement of propulsion motors in support of the Type 26 Batch 2 manufacture.
"

Great find! It's only a cost model, though, to be used for assessing the potential benefits of getting batched (a larger batch) production.

For another thread this could indicate that it's decision time getting nearer as to in what quantities to order more MIVs... as the first order will be pretty much fully absorbed just by the 4 inf. bns and 2 eng. rgmnts needed to have the strike bdes stood up
"DE&S Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV) Procurement & Commercial Cost model to support MG submission"
- best to paste this part on the MIV thread, to see what folks think


https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... april-2020
Oops, there was the link still within the "quote box", so sorry for writing within the box, rather than below it
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:That
" technology by at least a decade (or even more, because IH's base design, Apsalon dates back to 2004."
is like saying the Ticos are no good as they were put to sea in a hurry, using the Spruance hull. Or HMS Ocean using the Invincibles' hull... probably the strongest design point?
Very different.
- Spruance is a tier-1 ASW escort of the day. And, Tico is an AAW+ASW capable cruiser, and its 1st hull was build only 8 years after the first Spruance.
- Absalon is a logistic support vessel using frigate-like hull with limited ASW capability, 1st hull delivered in 2004. IH is build 7 years later, primarily AAW vessel, with limited ASW capability, as well, built with stress in being cheap. TASS sonar is an "option for future".
- French FDI is newly design "smallish FREMM", which is tasked with ASW carrying CAPTAS4CI sonar from day-one. And its first hull is to be delivered 2023+. Nearly two decades new design than Absalon. French navy knows how noisy/quiet IH-class is (by NATO ASW exercise). As FDI is rival in export market to IH-class, surely they consider something there.
- Also, noise dumping technology is advancing within these 2 decades. Some will be applicable also to Arrowhead 140, but I see no such trend and it is also very much planned with big big stress in being cheap.

And, I am just saying IH-class ASW capability will be similar to FDI (which is clearly stated to be "less than FREMM").
dmereifield wrote: I guess the question then would be, is an ASW optimised T31 "good enough"?
Tempest414 wrote:The short answer is no however a T-31 with the engines and gen sets rafted would be a step closer and could be a so so Tier 2 ASW
"Good enough for what?" will be the issue. Tier-2 ASW frigate is never be a sub hunter, but may be a good "screen". They will be always detected by an enemy sub before they detect it = no chance to win in 1-vs-1 ASW fight, but the frigate's contribution "as a member of the ASW screen" of a HVU will be non-negligible.

I understand tier-1 ASW escort is required to "do well" in 1-vs-1 ASW fight, although I am not a specialist here.

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shark bait
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

Without spending a stupid amount of money the T31 will never be a capable blue water sub hunter like the T26 is designed to be, which is fine.

Rather than trying to create a second tier T26, any focus should be placed on a different capability such as coastal surveillance using smaller higher frequency sonars.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:"Good enough for what?" will be the issue. Tier-2 ASW frigate is never be a sub hunter, but may be a good "screen".
well put - we are effectively talking about force (fleet) mix.

And all things military costing megabucks, I would use "affordable" in lieu of 'cheap'
- that way we will end up with enough units... to have any sort of mix to consider, to begin with
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

jonas wrote:Batch 2 :-

"
DE&S T26 Batch 2 Prop Motors - RN Model Procurement & Commercial Used to support the decision to bring-forward the procurement of propulsion motors in support of the Type 26 Batch 2 manufacture.
"


https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... april-2020
Is this not because of the political decision to place orders in the UK GE factory to avoid production being moved to France?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

How can you double-like :thumbup: a post (the above)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

jonas
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by jonas »

Ron5 wrote:
jonas wrote:Batch 2 :-

"
DE&S T26 Batch 2 Prop Motors - RN Model Procurement & Commercial Used to support the decision to bring-forward the procurement of propulsion motors in support of the Type 26 Batch 2 manufacture.
"


https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... april-2020
Is this not because of the political decision to place orders in the UK GE factory to avoid production being moved to France?

Yes, my memory must be fading I had completely forgotten that. Thanks.

dmereifield
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

Ron5 wrote:
jonas wrote:Batch 2 :-

"
DE&S T26 Batch 2 Prop Motors - RN Model Procurement & Commercial Used to support the decision to bring-forward the procurement of propulsion motors in support of the Type 26 Batch 2 manufacture.
"


https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... april-2020
Is this not because of the political decision to place orders in the UK GE factory to avoid production being moved to France?
A one off order of 10(?) motors is sufficient to do that?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

UK GE factory (...) production (...)moved to France?
Ever wondered where the UK Converteam (for the carrier 'emals') popped up from?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

June 26 article in Australian Financial Review, behind paywall, "Sinking feeling: frigate heads back to drawing board - The navy's $35 billion fleet of new frigates is undergoing design changes because they have become too heavy, risking a cost blowout for taxpayers and potentially compromising their performance."

Might be totally wrong but could be a reflection of report that first Hunter full load displacement will be 9,700 tonnes ?

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Defiance »

I've opened it up successfully from the link below (and I am not a subscriber)

https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/si ... 625-p55639

Headline is the radar and associated gubbins is heavy so they needed to make it bigger to be more stable

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Defiance wrote:Headline is the radar and associated gubbins is heavy so they needed to make it bigger to be more stable
The airdefence radar put onto the ozzie tubs is a biggie compared to ours... and as I have said for a "while" the design was grown to be just big enough to... support our radar (in Batch 2; even though the Batch 1 has now been chopped up, so will have to come up with a better label)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Defiance wrote: https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/si ... 625-p55639
PS Tried to read more, but "You have reached an article available exclusively to subscribers"
- luckily we have 'correspondents' in Oz
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Jdam »



Taken in March according to Navy lookout.

serge750
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by serge750 »

Perhaps they could weld outriggers to the hull to make it into a trimaran :D always liked the idea of a trimaran !

Glad to see some pictures of progress, isn't she expected to be hull complete ( in the water ) late next year?

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shark bait
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

Back to the old T26 concept?

Image
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dmereifield
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

shark bait wrote:Back to the old T26 concept?

Image
Awful

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Jdam
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Jdam »

serge750 wrote:Perhaps they could weld outriggers to the hull to make it into a trimaran :D always liked the idea of a trimaran !

Glad to see some pictures of progress, isn't she expected to be hull complete ( in the water ) late next year?
Don't know about in the water but Navylook out said.
HMS Glasgow is being constructed in two halves at Govan and the bow section is due to be rolled out of the Shipbuilding Outfit Hall in late 2020. The stern section will be rolled out a couple of weeks later and the two halves joined on the hardstanding outside.
He has got a article here.

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/warshi ... 6-frigate/

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RichardIC
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

Defiance wrote:Headline is the radar and associated gubbins is heavy so they needed to make it bigger to be more stable
ArmChairCivvy wrote:The airdefence radar put onto the ozzie tubs is a biggie compared to ours... and as I have said for a "while" the design was grown to be just big enough to... support our radar (in Batch 2; even though the Batch 1 has now been chopped up, so will have to come up with a better label)
CEAFAR is being fitted to the comparatively tiny Anzacs. So presumably the Hunter version of the system is going to be a whole heap meatier or are the RAN are prepared to accept some real stability compromises with the Anzacs - or is it a bit of both?

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