F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Lord Jim
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

Looking at the AIM-260 it has some interesting capabilities it seems. Foremost is the dual seeker, both Radar and Imaging Infra Red. Maybe we should investigate such a thing if the joint project with Japan to improve Meteor gets going?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

sunstersun wrote:Incredible stuff coming from a country Norway's size
Well, Penguin was a global std (with SS 11 and 12 as the poor runner-ups).

The fact is that who cannot invade Norway by sea will be poorly placed to try it by land (but the two together...)
- call that an 'incentive'?
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

sunstersun wrote:Steep competition coming for the Meteor.
Not really, by the time it arrives and is available for export it will be too late for most users. Meteor has got most of Europe nailed down as users already, add in Persian Gulf and Med countries, South Korea and Japan. Integration of Meteor to F-35 will increase that group, then add in the JNAAM development with AESA seeker c2025 and Meteor has a very strong future ahead of it. The US stranglehold on Medium-Long range missile sales in the 'West' that Sparrow and Amraam gave has been shattered.
sunstersun wrote:The most impressive ordnance export I've seen is Norway's NSM. It's already been bought by the USN and being considered for F-35's and frigates etc.
Norway has some form in the AShM market with Penguin. But NSM is the surface launched variant, JSM is the fast jet variant and they are different. The Norwegians were smart and demanded the US go halves with them on integration to F-35, and that it was scheduled in (for Block 4) as the price of Norway becoming an F-35 user. Both have sold 'reasonably' well, but its been out there for 15 years now and hasn't actually set the world on fire. Only 3 JSM users are confirmed: Norway, Australia and Japan. For NSM Norway use it, Poland has some ground launched variants. The US order is a big deal, but isn't actually colossal. Malaysia and Germany will be ordering it in future, but again in small quantities.

Basically it is a success at present, but its not a runaway success by any stretch.
Lord Jim wrote:Looking at the AIM-260 it has some interesting capabilities it seems. Foremost is the dual seeker, both Radar and Imaging Infra Red. Maybe we should investigate such a thing if the joint project with Japan to improve Meteor gets going?
MBDA have looked at dual IR/Radar seekers for decades now, their most recent look at future weapons includes dual mode AAM's. I wouldn't be surprised if the JNAAM work isn't looking at it in conjunction with an AESA seeker. For Japan countering the J-20 and any future Chinese VLO platforms will be uppermost in their minds.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Timmymagic wrote: The Norwegians were smart and demanded the US go halves with them on integration to F-35, and that it was scheduled in (for Block 4) as the price of Norway becoming an F-35 user.
Yes, the price of becoming the first quantity order... but not exactly halves (as LM is doing the costing and then the PMO is doing 'the buying'; Norway wanted to make sure that there would be no short-changing in future negotiations and the JSM integration is a state-on-state agreement... into which the Pentagon paid a whole ( 8-) ) $ 20mln. The point was that such agreements can't (easily) be reneged upon
Timmymagic wrote: a success at present, but its not a runaway success by any stretch
- going forward, by ten years as and when the intl F-35 deliveries pick up: what else is there for serious (stealthy and multiple impact from differing angles) anti-ship missions?
Timmymagic wrote:MBDA have looked at dual IR/Radar seekers for decades now, their most recent look at future weapons includes dual mode AAM's.
- goodiegoodie, as one of the reasons why Russian fighters (save for Mig-35) are so big has been their lacking skills in minituriasation and, hence, the ' tactics' have been to fire 'volleys' of missiles with both seeker methods
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:- going forward, by ten years as and when the intl F-35 deliveries pick up: what else is there for serious (stealthy and multiple impact from differing angles) anti-ship missions?
LRASM. Which appears to have gone ahead of the JSM in the Australian competition. Particularly with the recently announced work to integrate with P-8 announced. That means all 3 Australian platforms (F-35A, P-8 and FA-18E/F) will have the ability to carry the same munition (and JASSM/ER as well). For the US they'll have F-35A/B/C, P-8, B-1B and FA-18E/F. Which covers them pretty much conclusively, in addition to Harpoon platforms.

With JSM integration on P-8 totally silent at present, it looks like JSM may only have Norway and Japan in the bag for sales. The big question is if it can land any more? Poland, who already use NSM, are a good prospect, but then they also use JASSM. Denmark, South Korea, Singapore, Italy and the UK are the remaining prospects in order of probability (and the UK and Italy are distant ones). I can't see other F-35 users having a requirement. If Finland buys F-35A as part of the HX requirement its possible, but then, like Poland, they also use JASSM.

I should add that LRASM is dramatically more expensive than JSM...

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Timmymagic wrote:should add that LRASM is dramatically more expensive than JSM...
:)
- offensive counter air? Better risk missiles than planes... price 'no object'
- sink ships, many, of varying 'value'. Some of which have sophisticated defences. Yes, unit price does matter
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Timmymagic wrote:UK are the remaining prospects in order of probability (and the UK and Italy are distant ones)
I should add, to put some focus on the UK aspect that I would be in favour of a very small JSM buy, but not LRASM. JSM would close a gap for AShM from the QE Class, but would also provide a longer ranged, stand off, heavier weapon capability at a reasonable cost (based on what we know the NSM costs). But LRASM? Timelines for integration to F-35 and P-8 put it far too close to FCASW, not just for anti-shipping but it would also open the door wide for an JASSM-ER purchase. We shouldn't be sacrificing a hard won (and expensive) progression in the air weapons space for a short term advantage. A small buy of 50 JSM wouldn't do that. I'd take the lack of compatibility with Typhoon and P-8 (at present, at least they'll have Harpoon) on the chin.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Timmymagic wrote: A small buy of 50 JSM wouldn't do that. I'd take the lack of compatibility with Typhoon and P-8 (at present, at least they'll have Harpoon) on the chin.
Yes, we would have the interim (ships, P-8) and the interim-interim (F-35, esp. carrier-borne)
- sub-launched Tomahawk will not be around for ever
- there has been talk about JSM slotting into that role, as well. To the 2019 DSEI Kongsberg brought photographs about the fit of their missile in a standard torpedo tube... and this announcement:
"a submarine-launched version, the NSM-SL. It attracts the interest of the German Navy, which is progressing with evaluating its integration in the next generation of submarines – 212CD (Common Design) – to be built for both the German and Royal Norwegian Navies. The development schedule for NSM to cope with both countries‘ requirements for a surface ship- and submarine-launched missile has been accelerated following the announcement by the countries’ Ministries of Defence (MoDs) in February 2017 to extend naval cooperation from submarines to anti-surface missiles. Kongsberg Defence and Aerospace confirmed in May 2017 that for NSM-SL it has conducted a feasibility study in cooperation with selected industry partners [Babcock is one of them... who is it again that maintains our subs ;) ] to illustrate the potential for a low-risk, affordable adaptation programme.

Meeting the German requirements for a submarine-launched anti-ship missile with land attack capability for the next generation of submarines, the NSM-SL offers a 200+km (>108nm) operational range."
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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SKB
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by SKB »

Image
^ ZM149/BK16

Image
^ZM145/BK11

Image
^ ZM145/BK11

Image
^ZM151/BK17

Image
^ ZM145/BK11 (left), and ZM151/BK17 (right)

Image

According to the registration list, the UK's nineteenth F-35B ZM153/BK19 is now on the production line and due into service in later 2020.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by jonas »

Lightnings complete "Red Flag" :-

Lightning Strikes on Red Flag
(Source: Royal Air Force; issued Feb 13, 2020)
UK Lightning Force has achieved the latest in a long line of milestones with the successful conclusion of Exercise Red Flag. 617 Squadron deployed five of the state-of-the-art stealth jets to spend three weeks at Nellis Air Force Base near Las Vegas to do battle in the best air combat exercise available anywhere.

“Our experience on Red Flag has been amazing. Lightning has performed really well in this exercise and I have also been really pleasantly surprised as to how everyone has performed in this environment, our team has done fantastically well,” said Officer Commanding 617 Squadron, Wing Commander John Butcher.

For the junior pilots on the squadron, most of whom have come to the Lightning direct from training, the sheer scale and complexity of Red Flag was potentially a daunting prospect. “There’s a natural tendency to be concerned about what that may entail when you’ve not had that exposure before” explained Wing Commander Butcher.

Some of the junior pilots had only rehearsed some of the events they’d be flying out on the Nellis Range in the simulator. “They’ve been getting airborne and going into a 40 versus 40 aircraft fight with Russian surface to air missiles looking at them and the whole thing has been incredibly exciting” said Group Captain Jim Beck, the RAF Marham Station Commander.

“But most importantly they will know whether they can crack it for real. What they’re finding is that the jet is performing at the top of its game with a set of sensors we’ve just never had access to before in UK Defence. These are fusing together and really proving why we’ve invested in this awesome capability,” said Group Captain Jim Beck, RAF Marham Station Commander.

Air Vice-Marshal Ian Duguid, Air Officer Commanding 11 Group said: “This is definitely a key milestone for Lightning. And it’s not just about the high-end aspect of what we’re doing in the air on the exercise, but also the ability to deploy virtually half way around the world with the capability to have all the right spares and support mechanisms in place to keep the aircraft and the crews going.

“That is a really important milestone and particularly so ahead of the future embarkations onto HMS Queen Elizabeth, the first of which starts in only a few months’ time.”

For one of the more experienced Lightning pilots the significance of the exercise was clear. “Taking Lightning to Red Flag for the first time is a major milestone. This is a brilliant opportunity for us. The size of the airspace, the numbers of aircraft and the simulated enemy air defence systems on the ground, you really get the opportunity to stretch the capability of this jet to the maximum possible extent.

He added, “The situational awareness you get with this aircraft and the ability you have to understand and control all the battlespace is amazing and light years ahead of anything I’ve ever flown and any capability we’ve had in the Air Force.

“The way information is presented to you through the helmet which gives you this 360-degree view of the battlespace is unparalleled, incredible, a massive leap from the Tornado GR4 I flew previously.”

-ends-

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

Thumbs up for RAF chief mentioning carrier deployments!

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by jonas »

SKB wrote:Image
^ ZM149/BK16

Image
^ZM145/BK11

Image
^ ZM145/BK11

Image
^ZM151/BK17

Image
^ ZM145/BK11 (left), and ZM151/BK17 (right)

Image

According to the registration list, the UK's nineteenth F-35B ZM153/BK19 is now on the production line and due into service in later 2020.
Should be two more to follow, as three aircraft are due for delivery this year.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

Almost a hangar full, getting giddy at the thought (sarcasm)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by serge750 »

Cheeky !!! :lol: :angel: any freebies gatefully received.... :D

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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serge750 wrote:Cheeky !!! :lol: :angel: any freebies gatefully received.... :D
There's a local website where folks have been complaining about the noise of the F-35's using Davis Monthan. I'm sure the authors would let you have a few just to keep the peace and quiet :D

Yes, it's the right type. Marine F-35B's flying in from Yuma.

Yes, they're bloody hypocrites, they bought their houses under the flight paths of a very active air station that practices with F-16's & A-10's every day of the week.

Yes, they tried advertising for more write ups from the folks around me. They were me with a barrage of "shut up, you're drowning out the sound of freedom", "we like the aircraft, we go out and watch when they fly by (we are on training flight routes)" etc.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by SKB »

"Why should we have to put up with living next door to the noise and pollution of an international airport that's been there for over 70 years?" - every Heathrow Airport neighbouring resident.
:mrgreen:

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by serge750 »

Used to get A10's & Tornado's over the house I grew up, Loved it so awesome to see them so low :clap: if i could i would buy a house near Marham or Yeovil :thumbup: :wave:

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by NickC »

May be future possible competition/alternative to the problematic Anglo-French FC/ASW for the F-35B as new gem Storm Shadow, which now understand two separate missiles, UK subsonic and French supersonic, looks like on a similar timeline to the FC/ASW, a US future/possible faster BrahMos? The DARPA/USAF Hypersonic Air-Breathing Weapons Concept.

HAWC is an air-breathing hypersonic cruise missile which uses its rocket booster to get up to speed for the scramjet engine to take over at Mach 5 with max Mach 10. USAF now said to be making it a programme of record.

The advantages of a hypersonic air-breathing cruise missiles are that they are smaller, more affordable and fit on a wider range of platforms compared to the big hypersonic rocket boost-glide missiles which have longer ranges. Thus can be carried on F-35 and bombers in large numbers and it is easier to put a seeker on a cruise missile. A flight test demonstration on the B-52 is planned to occur before the end of the FY2020, Sep 2020. USN said to interested in possible HAWC variant for a future anti-ship to fit on F-35C, F-18 and P-8A.

My understanding competing bids, Lockheed/Aerojet vs Raytheon with a Northrop scramjet engine manufactured entirely with 3D-printed parts.

PS Scramjet, supersonic-combustion ramjet, is a ramjet engine in which the airflow through the engine remains supersonic, Scramjet powered vehicles are envisioned to operate at speeds up to at least Mach 15 (a ramjets internal airflow is subsonic).
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by seaspear »

There is a plan by the U.S.A.F for its f35a to carry a new anti radiation missile internally
https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing ... 97.article
is there any information if this could be carried internally by the f35b with its smaller internal bomb bay ?

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Defiance »

Always safer to assume not until explicitly told otherwise

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

seaspear wrote:is there any information if this could be carried internally by the f35b with its smaller internal bomb bay ?
AARGM-ER will definitely not fit in F-35B bays. Too long I'm afraid. That means that the proposed Stand In Attack Weapon (SIAW) derivative won't fit either. It will hang on the inner and middle wing pylons though.

It also looks terrifyingly expensive...

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

We will be better sticking to SPEAR.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

It's being speculated that Combat Air is going to take the biggest hit as part of the 'Integrated' Review...

Looks like the MoD is going to finally admit that the 138 figure is unachievable, looks like we may be about to bail on F-35...not sure if it also means the Tranche 1 Typhoon reprieve is reversed as well....

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by bobp »

Timmymagic wrote:'s being speculated that Combat Air is going to take the biggest hit as part of the 'Integrated' Review...
Kind of expected cuts to happen especially to the numbers of F35B. The T1 Typhoons still have some use so it would be sad to lose them as well.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Timmymagic wrote:not sure if it also means the Tranche 1 Typhoon reprieve is reversed as well....
They built the bridge to slower deliveries, after the carrier air ISD (CEPP has a later year pencilled in for it) will have been achieved.
This bridge then also evens out the OCU activities (the number of plane tied to the hump in that activity) and further helps to alliviate the in-year cash hit from our F-35s rolling off the line... NAO did not specify which planes were in focus when the MoD paid the supplier £6 mln extra for the luxury of rolling the bill over the FY end, but your guess is as good as mine ;)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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