UK Defence Forum

donald_of_tokyo wrote: Note, Wildcat is longer than NH90 and SH60 both can fold their tail.

Yeah, that will really force the Germans to buy the Wildcat instead of domestic NH-90....

shark bait wrote:"the Royal Navy Wildcats currently lack a data link"

That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a while, how is that acceptable? Brand new kit and its only way of transferring data is the same way they did in WW2.

Building any new kit build without a data link is a stupid idea, never mind the off-board system that's is going to be the sole anti shipping weapon for the fleet.

Yeah, that's the RN way of doeing things in last few decades...

And all of that backed by ever rising defence budget of 180zillions of pounds etc... You have to ask yourself what would happen if the budget was actually declining.

Janes IDS in March had a long article about Wildcat in Navy service. Unfortunately I don't think it's available online.

Anyhow, it sounds like a remarkable piece of kit. The radar is a big upgrade offering a 360 view with a major increase in range, clutter suppression, & detail and is forcing a major change in operational use. The QE carriers will always have at least 2 Wildcats embarked to take care of the area in and around the task group.

Two items are top of the RN's list: data link as mentioned above and the extra fuel tanks as on the Korean Wildcats. These tanks, when carried, give Wildcat the endurance of a Merlin.

donald_of_tokyo wrote:it is noted the flight it is a team made of of 11 members. (I think it is the first time the team size of a Wildcat was clearly noted?)

Tallies up with the Hollands: When the base manning of 32 is upped for also doing flight ops (albeit with a slightly larger helo) it goes up by 14.

abc123 wrote:

shark bait wrote:"the Royal Navy Wildcats currently lack a data link"

That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a while, how is that acceptable? Brand new kit and its only way of transferring data is the same way they did in WW2.

Building any new kit build without a data link is a stupid idea, never mind the off-board system that's is going to be the sole anti shipping weapon for the fleet.

Yeah, that's the RN way of doeing things in last few decades...

And all of that backed by ever rising defence budget of 180zillions of pounds etc... You have to ask yourself what would happen if the budget was actually declining.

It is. It was roughly 2.5% of GDP before the financial crisis, with a very very strong pound... and that was before pensions (and Trident?) etc were included.

Now we are at 2%.

Factor in defence inflation, pensions, Trident, weak pound, slow GDP growth, and how more and more of our defence spend is going on cyber warfare and special forces - then you quickly realise the conventional forces probably account for quite a bit less than 1.8% (the figure most often cited), I would estimate closer to 1.5%.

And how well we applaud ourselves for barely meeting NATO's minimum defence spend target

WhitestElephant wrote:

abc123 wrote:

shark bait wrote:"the Royal Navy Wildcats currently lack a data link"

That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a while, how is that acceptable? Brand new kit and its only way of transferring data is the same way they did in WW2.

Building any new kit build without a data link is a stupid idea, never mind the off-board system that's is going to be the sole anti shipping weapon for the fleet.

Yeah, that's the RN way of doeing things in last few decades...

And all of that backed by ever rising defence budget of 180zillions of pounds etc... You have to ask yourself what would happen if the budget was actually declining.

It is. It was roughly 2.5% of GDP before the financial crisis, with a very very strong pound... and that was before pensions (and Trident?) etc were included.

Now we are at 2%.

Factor in defence inflation, pensions, Trident, weak pound, slow GDP growth, and how more and more of our defence spend is going on cyber warfare and special forces - then you quickly realise the conventional forces probably account for quite a bit less than 1.8% (the figure most often cited), I would estimate closer to 1.5%.

And how well we applaud ourselves for barely meeting NATO's minimum defence spend target

I know. I was just ironic.

Ron5 wrote:Janes IDS in March had a long article about Wildcat in Navy service. Unfortunately I don't think it's available online.

Anyhow, it sounds like a remarkable piece of kit. The radar is a big upgrade offering a 360 view with a major increase in range, clutter suppression, & detail and is forcing a major change in operational use. The QE carriers will always have at least 2 Wildcats embarked to take care of the area in and around the task group.

Two items are top of the RN's list: data link as mentioned above and the extra fuel tanks as on the Korean Wildcats. These tanks, when carried, give Wildcat the endurance of a Merlin.

Including SAR?

To be honest I've not seen any announcement about carrying Wildcat routinely on the QE Class. Theought the 2 additional helicopters were Merlin HC.4's for plane guard/COD/RAS with the rest HM.2's.

I think the 2 Wildcat will be on the escorts with the carrier, not quite on the carrier. If they truly do manage to have 9 Merlin HM2 on board, the Type 45 will have Wildcat and even the frigate(s) might have it. That's how i explain it.

The Royal Marines want to have a coy of Marines on board with a "unit of action" of 4 Merlin HC4. The so-called Special Purpose Task Group.

Timmymagic wrote: Theought the 2 additional helicopters were Merlin HC.4's for plane guard/COD/RAS

The original plan was to use those Merlins that did not get upgraded - but it is sort of difficult when they are roting away in some barn.
- a couple of days back I posted that if we allocate 1 for each carrier, we'll still have a buffer of 9 for availability (7 should work with brand new machines, too, and now we get a neater percentage, 25% for the buffer)

Pymes75 wrote:

Ron5 wrote:Janes IDS in March had a long article about Wildcat in Navy service. Unfortunately I don't think it's available online.

Anyhow, it sounds like a remarkable piece of kit. The radar is a big upgrade offering a 360 view with a major increase in range, clutter suppression, & detail and is forcing a major change in operational use. The QE carriers will always have at least 2 Wildcats embarked to take care of the area in and around the task group.

Two items are top of the RN's list: data link as mentioned above and the extra fuel tanks as on the Korean Wildcats. These tanks, when carried, give Wildcat the endurance of a Merlin.

Including SAR?

Not mentioned, just policing the TG armed to the gills with missiles & guns. Very suited to the task.

Gabriele wrote:I think the 2 Wildcat will be on the escorts with the carrier, not quite on the carrier. If they truly do manage to have 9 Merlin HM2 on board, the Type 45 will have Wildcat and even the frigate(s) might have it. That's how i explain it.

The Royal Marines want to have a coy of Marines on board with a "unit of action" of 4 Merlin HC4. The so-called Special Purpose Task Group.

Yes, that's a reasonable interpretation. Here's the exact quote:

"Within the way we are moving (back) toward a CTG, the Wildcat is basically a ring of steel around that group" Cdr Carnie said. "so while we are not part of the main ORBAT for the carrier, there will always be a minimum of two Wildcats within the TG". "We'll be the eyes and ears of that force within a 50 to 100 mile radius. The Merlins with their Crowsnest will do the far-eyes but we are now a full ISTAR capability"

Carnie is Lynx maritime force commander at Yoevilton.

Ron5 wrote:Yes, that's a reasonable interpretation. Here's the exact quote:

"Within the way we are moving (back) toward a CTG, the Wildcat is basically a ring of steel around that group" Cdr Carnie said. "so while we are not part of the main ORBAT for the carrier, there will always be a minimum of two Wildcats within the TG". "We'll be the eyes and ears of that force within a 50 to 100 mile radius. The Merlins with their Crowsnest will do the far-eyes but we are now a full ISTAR capability"

Carnie is Lynx maritime force commander at Yoevilton.

Yeah, reading that quote it sounds like the (minimum) 2x Wildcats will be embarked on escorts - 1x Type 45 and 1x Type 23? If true, that would suggest that a QEC will always sail with a minimum of 2x DDG/FFGs - which is genuinely better than I was fearing!

^^can't they fit two on a T45? Or one on an escort and one on an RFA (heck two on an RFA and no escort required!!!!!)

Plane guard is a total waste of an Wildcat or a Merlin.

They'd be better off keeping a few of the current Lynx for that role or even say the Griffins as used in Cyprus.

Pymes75 wrote:

Ron5 wrote:Yes, that's a reasonable interpretation. Here's the exact quote:

"Within the way we are moving (back) toward a CTG, the Wildcat is basically a ring of steel around that group" Cdr Carnie said. "so while we are not part of the main ORBAT for the carrier, there will always be a minimum of two Wildcats within the TG". "We'll be the eyes and ears of that force within a 50 to 100 mile radius. The Merlins with their Crowsnest will do the far-eyes but we are now a full ISTAR capability"

Carnie is Lynx maritime force commander at Yoevilton.

Yeah, reading that quote it sounds like the (minimum) 2x Wildcats will be embarked on escorts - 1x Type 45 and 1x Type 23? If true, that would suggest that a QEC will always sail with a minimum of 2x DDG/FFGs - which is genuinely better than I was fearing!

I think you might be taking a leap too far.

Dahedd wrote:Plane guard is a total waste of an Wildcat or a Merlin.
They'd be better off keeping a few of the current Lynx for that role or even say the Griffins as used in Cyprus.

I agree not all mission needs even Wildcat. How about AS350 Ecureuil (introduced in 1997 at UK, for Defence Helicopter Flying School), or its successors to be involved in the role such as
- patrol: for Bay and even River B2s for WIGS. Ecureuil is very small (L10.9 x W2.5 x H3.0 m3), so very small retractable hangar suffices.
- plain guard: I think they can do it.
RAN was using it on their FFG for a certain period. It was terrible, or so-so good utility they had?

and be the admirals barge

My thinking Donald was that they already heave the standard naval Lynx. Check the fleet out & pick the aircraft in the best condition to hang onto

Lynx final farewell flypast | Royal Navy
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-la ... l-farewell
Mar 20, 2017 - Four Lynx Mk8 flew across Southern England on 17TH March 2017 to bid a fond farewell as she bows out of service on 31 March 2017.

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Lynx final farewell flypast | Royal Navy
www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-ac ... l-farewell
Mar 20, 2017 - Four Lynx Mk8 flew across Southern England on 17TH March 2017 to bid a fond farewell as she bows out of service on 31 March 2017.

True. But they must have a couple of examples with hours left. Got a decent IR fit as well with twin engines and trained crew. Right now its a sunk cost for a couple of years at least.

Timmymagic wrote:Right now its a sunk cost for a couple of years at least.

Absolutely. And the land-Lynxes share their upgraded engine (spec) with another helo that would typically be forward deployed (at times maintained in the field), so they should be kept for a good while, too.

Can the old "land" Lynx not be used as a Gazelle replacement for transporting folk around our had that been put to a PFI? It does seem to be a waste to just bin such a versatile chopper.
Though wasn't watch keeper supposed to replace Gazelle in the reconnaissance role?

Dahedd wrote:wasn't watch keeper supposed to replace Gazelle in the reconnaissance role?

Yeah, but aside from recce/ observation there are liaison, convoy protection, securing the immediate surroundings of LZs, fast roping specialists to "hard-to-get-to" places... lots and lots of things that you need only one or two helos for (not a whole AAC Rgmnt)
- JHC (Joint Helicopter Command) has been trusted with other assets that don't fit anywhere in a squadron strength (fixed-wing surveillance aircraft, Defender) or require skills that would have to be "grown" from scratch (the case with RA and Watckeeper - a fixed wing a/c that flies off runways!)

marktigger wrote:and be the admirals barge

Why? French navy is still using Alouette II for SAR = not for admirals barge. Surely limited in its capability (sensor will be only 2-3 Eyeball Mk.1, some updated with personal FLIR), but actions such as, sending medic/VIP, search/patrol, chasing smugglers boats and even sniping their engine will be doable?

Dahedd wrote:My thinking Donald was that they already heave the standard naval Lynx. Check the flak the fleet out & pick the aircraft in the best condition to hang onto

Uhmm, no idea. Disbanding a whole fleet of a single type of aircraft save a lot of money. It may be cheaper to buy 5-6 bare-born Wildcats in long term? We are talking about something needed throughout the CV life?