AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

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RetroSicotte
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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by RetroSicotte »

Replacing Apache with a transport helicopter really wouldn't be a particularly effective decision in terms of combat capability, in my opinion.

However, Wildcat with additional offensive elements to replace the 17 Apache's the UK lost? Yes. Please.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by shark bait »

Why not?

What stopping use strapping a bunch of rockets and missiles on the side of a utility helicopter, and getting a single all round platform?
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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

shark bait wrote: strapping a bunch of rockets and missiles on the side of a utility helicopter, and getting a single all round platform?
http://raider.sikorsky.com/aircraft-specs.asp

Instead of the Warrior turret plus 6 in the back, here you get 6 in the back, and:
C-17 loadout Four aircraft; call that the quick-reaction force; e.g. in support of a Para bn

Payload
Hellfire missiles
2.75" rockets
.50 cal gun
7.62 mm gun

What is stopping us? Hmm, could be the price
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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by marktigger »

Blackhawk has been turned down on multiple occasions by the British military

it was proposed as a wessex replacement
it was proposed as the Attack helicopter
it was proposed as a lynx replacement

westland used to have the licence to build them with RTM 332 engines exported a few to the middle east.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by Little J »

The Yanks are looking at using the Blackhawk replacement to also replace the Apache, the weapons would be stored in the passenger/cargo cabin.

I wonder if it isn't worth buying into the programme (with an eye on future need and all).

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:here ( in a sikorsky Raider) you get 6 in the back
Beyond SF I started thinking what is a 6-strong team worth? In the US they always talk about JFOs and JTACs (job descriptions) whereas we talk about teams: the rotations through A-stan meant that 40plus of such had to be trained.
- so, put on the ground a team of 2-3 of those and the same number for close protection (or not so close, with an MG)... that is quite a bit of battle field effect
- and, if the point in terrain where they will need to be is not "receptive" the weapons load on a Raider should be sufficient to clear it
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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by RetroSicotte »

shark bait wrote:Why not?

What stopping use strapping a bunch of rockets and missiles on the side of a utility helicopter, and getting a single all round platform?
Because simply carrying the weapons makes up almost nothing of why an Apache is so powerful in its role. Blackhawk doesn't have anything like the radar, fire control, sensor suite, defensive capabilities or combat flying potential. It doesn't have the M320, probably the most flexible weapon on the platform.

A Blackhawk with some missiles instead of an Apache is like buying a 9mm pistol for the infantry to replace their service rifles.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by shark bait »

Yes as it stands now, it would clearly take some development.

Whats unique about the Apache's systems that could not be retrofitted to a utility helicopter such as the Wildcat or Blackhawk?

As others have pointed out it looks like that's where the future lies, I wonder if whilst the RN and Army are busy renewing their fleets have they missed a trick?
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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by RetroSicotte »

Literally the entire airframe and almost all of its systems are unique and specified to its task. If you strip all of that out and put it into a transport helo along with the same weapons, the same cockpit elements and then modified the airframe to let it move like an Apache does in its role, then you might as well have just bought the Apache in the first place.

It's the same reason we don't just put Meteors, Captor-E and 27mm cannons on C-130s then try to use them as a Typhoon replacement.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by shark bait »

I don't think that's a good analogy, its comparing an air-to-air platform with a air-to-ground platform. More so if you consider how the Americans are expanding their use of C-130s in the attack configuration.

Sure a utility helicopter would never have the flight characteristics of an Apache, but is that necessary? Aside from that I don't see a single system the couldn't be fitted on a utility platform.
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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by RetroSicotte »

And development costs to retrofit all that, with all the prevailing restrictions on power usage, networking, ergonomics, crew protection, software rewrites.

I guess I'm just a little confused why you would want to take a perfectly good helicopter, and spend even more to develop a basically new version of another airframe to do the same job, only worse. Especially when the Wildcat already exists to put some additional weaponry on that is already integrated to help bring up the level of firepower.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by Ron5 »

Here we go again: put a 12" gun on the Isle of White ferry and it becomes a battleship.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

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Ron5 wrote:Here we go again: put a 12" gun on the Isle of White ferry and it becomes a battleship.
Wight* (means 'Ghost')

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by Little J »

Would it not be better to look at Vietnam and the original attack helicopter, the AH-1 Cobra?

Designed because the Huey gunships were to slow and cumbersome to keep up with the other helicopters in the attack.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Little J wrote:better to look at Vietnam and the original attack helicopter, the AH-1 Cobra?

Designed because the Huey gunships were to slow and cumbersome
They also had the "battleship" of helicopters. Chinooks fitted out... every single one was lost.
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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by Caribbean »

Ron5 wrote:Here we go again: put a 12" gun on the Isle of White ferry and it becomes a battleship.
Gunboat, I would have thought, you would need at least 8 to make it a battleship ;)
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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Caribbean wrote: you would need at least 8 to make it a battleship
Heh-heh, Nelson Class not battleships? "often referred to as the first treaty battleships. The Nelsons were unique in British battleship construction, being the only ships to carry a main armament of nine 16-inch (406 mm) guns. These were all carried forward."

And their big guns came from...
"the largest guns ever fitted to a warship with the exception of the 46 cm (18.1") guns built twenty years later for the Japanese Yamato class battleships. Only one 18"/40 (45.7 cm) gun was actually installed on HMS Furious and gun trials with it were carried out in July 1917. These trials showed that this lightly-built ship could not handle the overpressures generated and so the gun was removed and Furious was converted to an aircraft carrier. It was then planned to use the three guns in coastal defense batteries but this was quickly changed to mount them afloat on monitors in fixed mountings. Two of these monitors saw service during World War I and one of these, HMS General Wolfe, engaged a railroad bridge at Snaeskerke, four miles (6.5 km) south of Ostende, Belgium, on 28th September 1918 at a range of 36,000 yards (32,920 m), the longest range at which a Royal Navy vessel has ever fired upon an enemy. General Wolfe fired a total of 81 rounds against enemy targets while Lord Clive fired an additional four rounds. The war ended before the third monitor, Prince Eugen**, could be converted.

After the monitors were scrapped following the end of the war, the 18" (45.7 cm) guns were used for various testing purposes. Gun number 1 was used at Silloth for cordite proofing tests in 1920 and afterwards converted to a 16" (40.6 cm) design between 1921 and 1924 for use as a prototype for the 16"/45 (40.6 cm) Mark I guns destined for the Nelson class."

---------
** Another Prince Eugen here, under the American flag:
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/germa ... rinz-eugen
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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by marktigger »

easy just put Merlin back in production at Yeovil. Give it missiles for the navy and transfare the Naval ones to the AAC to supplement numbers and replace the gazelle,

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by RichardIC »

Why on earth would the AAC want more Wildcat? Why on earth would it want the ones it already has apart from the fact it's Wildcat or nothing? It gives the AAC nothing.

The Wildcat is good naval platform which is the format in which it's been exported (modestly) like naval Lynx before it. It's telling Leonardo says that all current potential sales efforts are for naval Wildcat. It will have a very decent surface attack capability and it has the distinct bonus that you can operate two from the T45s, T23s and in-time the T26s. The version South Korea has bought even has a reasonable ASW capability.

There is no doubt that overall Merlin is a superior platform. But it's also hugely expensive and we can't afford the equipment programme we have now.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by marktigger »

we could operate 2x Lynx from the type 22 did we ever do it?

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by marktigger »

so who do you think would want wildcat's ?

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by RichardIC »

Not the AAC (which was the point I was making)

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

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RichardIC wrote:Not the AAC (which was the point I was making)

really it has optics package and capability to carry other sensors. LMM is a guided weapon that can be employed against light armoured vehicles and technicals possibly even drones. GPMG and M3 .5 MG give it a light escort capability in low intensity conflicts. the wildcat is more a gazelle replacement. And to replace Lynx they AAC should have goten AW139.

precisely what antisurface threats in a naval enviroment can it deal with above a small Fast Attack Boat? LMM or sea venom aren't capable of taking out anything more. everything else merlin can do it much much better.
Also removing it from FAA will make savings in training and support budgets less stores holdings.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by Timmymagic »

Sea Venom has a 30kg warhead. Realistically it's going to hurt a Corvette (1,000 tons) a hell of a lot. Possibly sink it, particularly if it employs a directed warhead like Sea Skua.

2 x 30 kg warhead hitting a Type 45 would in all probability be a mission kill.

Sure a Merlin could tote a couple of JSM's but there are some who believe that they're not big enough to sink a ship. Not many navies have ever gone down the full size ASM route on helicopters, usually the effect on range is so severe that you'd just be better off using the helo for targetting or mid course guidance to a ship launched version. This doesn't change the fact that Merlin should be armed with LMM and Sea Venom either.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Post by marktigger »

didn't india arm seaking with Sea eagle and pakistan put exocet on theirs?

Maverick which the RNZAF use has a 57kg warhead and Penguin used by USN has a 120 KG warhead.

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