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AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

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Ron5
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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby Ron5 » 05 Dec 2019, 15:50

Do the new "wings" enable longer range?

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby andrew98 » 05 Dec 2019, 16:19

Maybe with external tanks if plumbed for wet stores?
If not I'd imagine only a tiny % of an increase if any I'd expect.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby bobp » 05 Dec 2019, 21:16

Ron5 wrote:Do the new "wings" enable longer range?


Doubt that it does, bearing in mind the drag and weight of the missiles versus any small gain from the wing. They are supposed to enter service next year. So we may hear more shortly I guess.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby Timmymagic » 06 Dec 2019, 09:27

Ron5 wrote:Do the new "wings" enable longer range?


I suspect any gains from lift will be cancelled out partially by drag and weight. Whats not clear about the wing (at least to me) is if it totally replaces the smaller wing, or if its just for ASuW. I haven't seen anything about torpedoes or DC's from the larger wing. Suspect Torpedoes would only be on the inner wing pylon.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby Ron5 » 06 Dec 2019, 16:56

The wing appears to me to have significant angle of attack at normal flying attitudes so why is that unless to generate lift?

Also why the new carrier anyway, the old one could attach the same number of missiles?

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby Timmymagic » 06 Dec 2019, 17:19

Ron5 wrote:The wing appears to me to have significant angle of attack at normal flying attitudes so why is that unless to generate lift?

Also why the new carrier anyway, the old one could attach the same number of missiles?


There is another wing, that the South Koreans use for Spike NLOS, but the UK ones were fielded with a fairly small hardpoint that could carry Stingray or DC's. The new UK wing will enable both the Sea Venom and Martlet 5 pack to be carried. The SK wing I don't think had enough clearance or attachment points to do both.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby mr.fred » 06 Dec 2019, 21:35

Ron5 wrote:The wing appears to me to have significant angle of attack at normal flying attitudes so why is that unless to generate lift?

To reduce drag when in the nose-down attitude associated with higher speed flight in helicopters?

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby Ron5 » 07 Dec 2019, 00:39

mr.fred wrote:
Ron5 wrote:The wing appears to me to have significant angle of attack at normal flying attitudes so why is that unless to generate lift?

To reduce drag when in the nose-down attitude associated with higher speed flight in helicopters?


So why aren't the missiles similarly oriented?

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 07 Dec 2019, 04:38

Timmymagic wrote:The new UK wing will enable both the Sea Venom and Martlet 5 pack to be carried.
I guess you are saying "at the same time"?
- looking for Brimstones as ripple launching the whole load (of them, as carried... how many would that be) would be the appropriate answer to manoeuvring boghammers

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby mr.fred » 07 Dec 2019, 09:20

Ron5 wrote:So why aren't the missiles similarly oriented?

To make them level when the helicopter is in a hover?
To ensure that there is no risk of hitting the rotor disk when fired?

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby PapaGolf » 07 Dec 2019, 10:20

Wasn’t there an article online that stated the wings generated an appreciable amount of lift during flight? Sure I read it but can’t remember where. Perhaps it just cancels out the additional drag of the weapons though.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 07 Dec 2019, 14:08

PapaGolf wrote: an article online that stated the wings generated an appreciable amount of lift during flight?


May be (?) that was about Merlin, with stub wings, and the lift/ saving in fuel, would be important as perseverance (in ASW) is the name of the game
- those stub wings never came about, anyway
- and may be we have been reading different sources

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby PapaGolf » 07 Dec 2019, 16:52

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... gs-459997/

A quick search brings up this article. Mentions increase in lift but not by how much.

I guess if they start flying by default with the wings attached then there must be a benefit.

Edit: I see Ron already quoted this article on the previous page.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby Ron5 » 07 Dec 2019, 18:10

I had quite forgotten. So does the lift generation translate to longer range?. I assume it does.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby Lord Jim » 09 Jan 2020, 12:06

I cannot see wings of that size generating that much additional lift to be honest, some but not a lot. They are more outrigger that wing. These are far different from those proposed for the US Army's new platforms or what were fitted to the Russian Mi-6 back in the day to maximise its left potential. The additional lift for the Wildcat will be of use when it flies with a full weapon load, taking some of the strain of the main rotor. Where it helps with range, I would be surprised if that was the case, again given the small size of the wings in the case of the Wildcat. How much does the Apache or Sea Cobra benefit form its "Wings" for example?

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby Ron5 » 05 Mar 2020, 17:24

Lord Jim wrote:I cannot see wings of that size generating that much additional lift to be honest, some but not a lot. They are more outrigger that wing. These are far different from those proposed for the US Army's new platforms or what were fitted to the Russian Mi-6 back in the day to maximise its left potential. The additional lift for the Wildcat will be of use when it flies with a full weapon load, taking some of the strain of the main rotor. Where it helps with range, I would be surprised if that was the case, again given the small size of the wings in the case of the Wildcat. How much does the Apache or Sea Cobra benefit form its "Wings" for example?


Answered here, a very precise 360kg of lift per side. Must be a maximum. Nice photo.

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/weapon-wing-integration-keeps-wildcat-on-target-for-carrier-protection-role/137104.article

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby Timmymagic » 05 Mar 2020, 19:41

Its worth noting that today has also brought news of the progress of Martlet and Sea Venom towards IOC. It's not good, but not dreadful.
Martlet has had delays but is still expected to get IOC on Wildcat in January 2021. Sea Venom IOC has been delayed by a year to '2022'.

It's also worth remembering that IOC in terms of the actual availability of a weapon system usually means that you can add a couple more years on from that date for when a system is in wider service. It takes time to train maintainers, do practice shoots, train aircrew, build up stocks etc etc. For a complex weapon like Sea Venom that means its more like 2025 when the Wildcat fleet will be fully equipped and trained to use it in anger to its full capabilities.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby Timmymagic » 05 Mar 2020, 19:44

Ron5 wrote:Answered here, a very precise 360kg of lift per side. Must be a maximum. Nice photo.


It does look good. Can't help but be a little disappointed that there isn't a mounting point at the end of the wing for a Stinger/Starstreak style missile. Or more usefully a fixed forward firing machine gun. A pair of GPMG or those new .338 MG's would be the icing on the cake.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby Ron5 » 05 Mar 2020, 22:00

Timmymagic wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Answered here, a very precise 360kg of lift per side. Must be a maximum. Nice photo.


It does look good. Can't help but be a little disappointed that there isn't a mounting point at the end of the wing for a Stinger/Starstreak style missile. Or more usefully a fixed forward firing machine gun. A pair of GPMG or those new .338 MG's would be the icing on the cake.


I think you're getting your Wildcat's mixed up.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby Timmymagic » 06 Mar 2020, 13:28

Ron5 wrote:I think you're getting your Wildcat's mixed up.


That's a Martlet round this way...

Seriously though I'm always a little nervous of all missile armaments. Don't think the pintle mounted M3M will fit with the wings attached, and even if it did and could still be lifted it likely couldn't be fired. A couple of fixed GPMG could give an escalation option in some circumstances.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby Ron5 » 06 Mar 2020, 15:16

Nah, these are Martlets:

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 06 Mar 2020, 15:26

Timmymagic wrote:A couple of fixed GPMG could give an escalation option in some circumstances.


Even if we were to bring the Bronco back, the helo advantage over the fixed wing a/c is that you can bring the fire to bear on the target, without multiple passes

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby Lord Jim » 06 Mar 2020, 19:11

Timmymagic wrote:A couple of fixed GPMG could give an escalation option in some circumstances.


Nah better to fix one or two M2 Browning's instead, they have a far greater impact in both senses of the word.

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby Timmymagic » 06 Mar 2020, 19:35

Lord Jim wrote:Nah better to fix one or two M2 Browning's instead, they have a far greater impact in both senses of the word.


Too much weight at the wing tips for that, add in the feed and ammo and it becomes a non-starter. You're talking 150lb extra weight per wing tip. GPMG with a feed is about 50lb's. 100lb of ammo including can gets you 200 rounds of .50cal or 1,000 rounds of 7.62.

So..

2 x M3M, with feed, mounting and 100 rounds per gun is about 400 lb's total.
or
2 x GPMG, with feed, mounting and 500 rounds per gun is about 200 lbs total

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Re: AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

Postby bobp » 06 Mar 2020, 20:01

The wildcat will still be able to use its door mounted guns according to the Janes article.


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