Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.
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shark bait
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by shark bait »

Gabriele wrote:an MPA must have a good and constantly supported ability to find, track and attack submarines.
Absolutely, more specifically for the uk, its about finding Russian subs. I may be wrong here but are the best ways of finding a sub through sonar, and a magnetic anomaly detector? Both have sonobuoys available but I believe the P8 goes without the MAD because it flies too high. Im not sure where the P8 really excells in its sub hunting capability other than its massive range.

On a side note I'd like to question the validity of the whole concept. If the worlds military's cant find MH370, which isnt trying to hide, what makes us the just the UK military can find a Russian sub that is trying to hide?
I know this situations aren't the same but there are some parallels between them
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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WhitestElephant wrote:What are the options of P8 being capable of performing the same job as Sentinel? As I understand it, Sentinel could be upgraded to perform maritime surveillance (but no weapons capability), so what about P8 being capable ground ISTAR too?

If so, Sentinel could be retired in favour of a single P8 fleet performing both roles, saving money. Imagine an armed ISTAR over Iraq fighting ISIS...

Or am I being silly?
I believe both the R1 and the P8 both have a synthetic aperture radar that is capable of sea and ground based surveillance. I would say your suggestion is very sensible.
P8 also features some signals intelligence capability although there
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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Sentinel R1 can be given a surface search radar mode (probably Inverse SAR, ISAR) and it has been suggested that it might be given an optic sensor derived from the DB110/ RAPTOR recce pod. But Sentinel R1 comes with limited growth margin, at the point that the idea of adding an AAR probe, once expected, was dropped due to weight. It carries no weapons.

P-8 Poseidon comes with much larger growth margin, a rear-facing radar and a big multimission radar in the front which has useful ground modes. However, as covered in greater detail here: http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot ... nd-uk.html the Poseidon can be fitted with an additional radar in a "canoe" fairing. In the US Navy case this is the secretive AAS advanced radar. Such a radar installation gives it a huge littoral and over-land surveillance capability. With an addition of this kind, P-8 could replace Sentinel R1 and result in a big increase in capability.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by WhitestElephant »

Thanks both Gabriele and shark bait, much appreciated.

Cheers for the link to your blog piece on the P8 Gab, very informative - although I am sure I must have read it before, having followed your blog for several years. Nonetheless thanks for the refresh.

I would be happy to see a uniform fleet of P8 tasked with MPA and battlefield ISTAR, especially now knowing it is very much possible and wouldn't simply be a very unique and expensive UK specific refit of sorts. The increase in capability and through life cost savings would be ideal.
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by jonas »

shark bait wrote:
Gabriele wrote:an MPA must have a good and constantly supported ability to find, track and attack submarines.
Absolutely, more specifically for the uk, its about finding Russian subs. I may be wrong here but are the best ways of finding a sub through sonar, and a magnetic anomaly detector? Both have sonobuoys available but I believe the P8 goes without the MAD because it flies too high. Im not sure where the P8 really excells in its sub hunting capability other than its massive range.

On a side note I'd like to question the validity of the whole concept. If the worlds military's cant find MH370, which isnt trying to hide, what makes us the just the UK military can find a Russian sub that is trying to hide?
I know this situations aren't the same but there are some parallels between them
Looks like it will be getting a MAD capability in the future:-

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articl ... drone.html

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by jonas »

I can reveal that the UK is buying 12 P8 Poseidons for £2bn, to counter the growing Russian threat. Well that is an exclusive scoop by 'The Sun' so now you know. Unlike Mr Ashdown I would be willing to eat my hat if it came to pass. :shock:

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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I don't think 2 billion would be enough for inducting 12, unless the US give a big helping hand.
More like 8 or less, judging from what Australia paid its 8.

Then again, I would be quite damn happy even with 8.
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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intesesting how that gives a unit cost exactly at £166 million, exactly what the Wikipedia page gives.
Whist I would welcome such news I don't think its beyond the sun to make shit up.
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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Also have they just shopped a MAD on the end. 99% sure the P8 doesn't have one.
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by Gabriele »

The MAD can be easily fitted. US ones don't have it, but India has required it on theirs, and the UK could do the same. But as we were saying earlier, it would probably be best to follow the USN methods and fittings, and stay as standard as possible in the interest of financial aspects. Medium/high altitude ASW will also stress the airframe a hell of a lot less, enabling a longer useful life.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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Didn't India's P8 have them? If we are getting them I wonder if we will add any more equipment to it I remember someone telling me we had stuff planned for the nimrod placed in storage.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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Jdam wrote:Didn't India's P8 have them? If we are getting them I wonder if we will add any more equipment to it I remember someone telling me we had stuff planned for the nimrod placed in storage.
Have you got any more info in that? Its a possibility I've oftern thought about.
I am of the understanding that the systems for the Nimrod was excellent but the airframes where shit. So then my thoughts are why not transfer the systems over? At least that way the billions spent aren't completely wasted and we retain some native capability.

Or am. I just talking crap? It's not something I've looked into, I always assumed everything Nimrod was hurriedly destroyed.
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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shark bait wrote:
Jdam wrote:Didn't India's P8 have them? If we are getting them I wonder if we will add any more equipment to it I remember someone telling me we had stuff planned for the nimrod placed in storage.
Have you got any more info in that? Its a possibility I've oftern thought about.
I am of the understanding that the systems for the Nimrod was excellent but the airframes where shit. So then my thoughts are why not transfer the systems over? At least that way the billions spent aren't completely wasted and we retain some native capability.

Or am. I just talking crap? It's not something I've looked into, I always assumed everything Nimrod was hurriedly destroyed.
I imagine that'd add enormously to the costs to the point that we might as well use A330's because then we'd at least get the industrial benefit of building the wings and the engines and some commonality with the A330 Voyager.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by Jdam »

Nothing concrete I'm afraid it from a conversation I had with an ex army guy, they happened to mention that a lot of the equipment for the mra4 was in storage including things like the radar, I guess it depends on how many were finished before it was scrapped considering how far it was behind schedule a lot of the equipment could have been completed.

We are going to have to get a few things integrated into the P8 so it could be an opportunity or could be like when we have added stuff in the past it could be a disaster, the reason I brought it up was the hope that someone might have known something about it and gave us (including me) some better info.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by S M H »

The question is how much of the P8 mission equipment was common to Nimrod. If salvaged and kept from the T.S.R.2 style public destruction of the Nimrod airframes. Can salvaged new equipment be used on the P8? That may explain the order less then the published price.
Should the order be twelve as quoted. The Nimrod that was delivered to Kinloss would have to be stripped of its mission equipment as we bought 12 sets?

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by Gabriele »

I think there's not much to be done, at least not about the major sensors. The Poseidon's MX-20HD eo turret should be much better than the Nighthunter that was planned for the MRA4, and there's no interest in facing the cost of such a change. Searchwater 2000 is also not likely to be worth trying to integrate it. It could be interesting, if they are stored somewhere, to add the Elta EL/L-8000UK ESM system on Poseidon, to give it the great ELINT capability MRA4 would have had.
Don't know if the acoustic processors 970 and 971 are the same that Poseidon use.
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by Jdam »

That's good to hear, I take it the only thing then that really needs to be integrated into it is UK weapons.

Any one got some more of the sun article?

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by jonas »

shark bait wrote:intesesting how that gives a unit cost exactly at £166 million, exactly what the Wikipedia page gives.
Whist I would welcome such news I don't think its beyond the sun to make shit up.
How dare you, even you must know that the 'Sun' has it's finger on the pulse, and would never print anything without having irrefutable evidence. You should be ashamed of yourself for even having the temerity to doubt this wonderfull 'newspaper' !!! :lol:

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by The Armchair Soldier »

Jdam wrote:That's good to hear, I take it the only thing then that really needs to be integrated into it is UK weapons.

Any one got some more of the sun article?
Here's a non-paywalled article from the Express:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/576215 ... ted-in-RAF

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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The Armchair Soldier wrote:
Jdam wrote:That's good to hear, I take it the only thing then that really needs to be integrated into it is UK weapons.

Any one got some more of the sun article?
Here's a non-paywalled article from the Express:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/576215 ... ted-in-RAF
May I suggest that both the "Express" and the "Sun" are non articles.
We all know that only months after the scrapping of MRA4, the MOD actually realised what a tremendous f**k up it had made and set up a committee to explore the choices for the replacement of the MPA capability, indeed it was headed up by the RN
We also know that an MPA capability is one of the critical decisions that has to be made by the government, it has not "been persuaded" it has known since the demise of our MPA's that it need to be resurected.
Quotes like "Likely to include Poseidon P8", "A senior defence source", "A spokesman for the MOD" mean absolutely nothing. Both the Express and the Sun, know very well that this is top of the list for an announcement, so they now claim it as the scoop of the century.
The general public, with little or no interest in matters of defence will no doubt believe this, but anyone with the slightest of interest will know that it is and has been top of the procurement list for a couple of years.

In short it must be a slow news day for the editors.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by bobp »

The story is also doing the rounds via the daily mirror. As there is no precise details of any order, it could be a bit early to speculate. But if there is an ounce of truth in the story then surely its good news as opposed to hearing about yet more cuts to defence. :D

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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now we're passed the pay wall, its clearly all speculative rubbish
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by downsizer »

Lets also not forget that something will be cut to pay for this. My money is Tornado.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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downsizer wrote:Lets also not forget that something will be cut to pay for this. My money is Tornado.
Wasn't their a £1.5bn underspend in the MoD procurement budget last year? If they were to kill the Tornado what would be the chances of speeding up Brimstone and Storm Shadow integration on Typhoon?

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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downsizer wrote:Lets also not forget that something will be cut to pay for this. My money is Tornado.
Not necessarily, there is 8 billion unallocated and over 4 billion headroom/contingency between now and 2024. Some wriggle room get say 4 or 6 P8 without too much haste.

Tornado is being dropped anyway soon, then on to F-35.
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