Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

[ArmChairCivvy]

The question (that started this) was a wholly innocent "when" and there is no hint of wrong doing (incompetence and dilly-dallying in loads... which might explain the protracted and twisted process)
... or; what do you say?

[jimthelad]

O'h this one's got legs, are we going to call it 'Poseidongate'.

'Run for the oval office, the bastards can't corner you there!' HR Haldeman

Everyone in the MRA4 program from 2002 knew it wouldn't work. The fitters at Kinloss were amazed it was proposed they were going to use the airframes in 2000. They after alll had to fabricate the spars and panels by hand for EACH airframe when repairs were needed. 1950 hand built panels and computer tooled wings do not mix sadly. The get well revision in 2005 concluded it couldn't. The modification and implementation committee in 2006 (32 people from maritime, independant industry, government) concluded the airframe was intolerant of the proposed changes and suggested an emergency adoption of the Airbus A320 or A319.

This was vetoed by MoD following intense lobbying from BAe. In summary a total CF. If any serious blame is to be attributed then it should be with BAe and the senior political echelons in MoD. The program management office itself had concluded the project was doomed in 2008. I suspect the draw down in numbers was due to the TOTAL number of airframes they could actually build. The first 3 prototypes had great mission systems and engines but were already suffering from fatigue especially in the main wing box areas. production units 1-7 were in advanced fit out and all had revised wing boxes. 9 I think would have been the total number we could ever build. It would have been cheaper to re-instate a new build program using the original drawings than what actually happened. To admit all of the above especially following the Nimrod loss and the Herrick and Telic operational contexts would have undermined the government. Much better to put off, delay, and get somebody else do the dirty work for you.

End result we have a sadly needed capability gapped and the costs to reconstitute it in the face of severe budgetary pressure. The need to protect shareholders, awful program management in industry, management bonus culture, and above all politics caused the demise of MRA4.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Thanks Jim; there you go (every one else)... just what happened
- I deduced, but luckily there are people here who also know

I have always been wondering why this thread is the longest of them all... with a lot of invested "emotional" capital. I am glad the "Royal Navy shipbuilding historians" have not come here, with their emotional baggage. That would be even worse! [Hey! I am NOT saying this has been too bad, just have got tired on the way, reading through the tug-of-war)

And: just quoting from Jim: the mission systems were wonderful, the integrator for them was Boeing, and the next version will come... from Boeing - simply bcz they can deliver the same (and better, lots of water under the Thames bridges in this intervening time)

[ArmChairCivvy]

Of course I was wrong! Forgot the carrier thread that is longer... after all they are national totems
- to put my joking right: I am all for them; for both of them (as some may have noticed from the reasoning why 0.7 availability would have been useless)

[downsizer]

So are people seriously suggesting MRA4 was scrapped purely to engineer a buy of P8? It was binned for a number of reasons, buying P8 wasn't one of them.

Good god.

Well that at least is something different, so now we have a conspiracy theory to contend with, that's sure to calm the discussion down

possibly or corruption

You can't possibly be serious.

[bobp]

Spills coffee.... Are you guys for real we have pages of mumbo jumbo as to whether P1 is better than P8 or the other way round, now the whole business is a conspiracy theory to not buy the scrap metal from BAE costing x billions but the alternative P8 from the USA but to keep everyone happy we wont announce the order for another 10 years.

[jonas]

Spills coffee.... Are you guys for real we have pages of mumbo jumbo as to whether P1 is better than P8 or the other way round, now the whole business is a conspiracy theory to not buy the scrap metal from BAE costing x billions but the alternative P8 from the USA but to keep everyone happy we wont announce the order for another 10 years.

Succinctly put, and a good thing to as some are finding the whole thing 'tiring'.

[marktigger]

So are people seriously suggesting MRA4 was scrapped purely to engineer a buy of P8? It was binned for a number of reasons, buying P8 wasn't one of them.

Good god.

Well that at least is something different, so now we have a conspiracy theory to contend with, that's sure to calm the discussion down

possibly or corruption

You can't possibly be serious.

why did liam fox resign?

[Pseudo]

So are people seriously suggesting MRA4 was scrapped purely to engineer a buy of P8? It was binned for a number of reasons, buying P8 wasn't one of them.

Good god.

Well that at least is something different, so now we have a conspiracy theory to contend with, that's sure to calm the discussion down

possibly or corruption

You can't possibly be serious.

why did liam fox resign?

Sorry, I hadn't realised that I'd logged in to AboveTopSecret.com.

[jonas]

So are people seriously suggesting MRA4 was scrapped purely to engineer a buy of P8? It was binned for a number of reasons, buying P8 wasn't one of them.

Good god.

Well that at least is something different, so now we have a conspiracy theory to contend with, that's sure to calm the discussion down

possibly or corruption

You can't possibly be serious.

why did liam fox resign?

Well the reasons were done to death at the time, and are extremely well recorded if you cared to look. Then again I suppose you have done so, but now you don't believe those reasons at all. The kernel of doubt has begun to grow, now that 'conspiracy' has been mentioned.

This is snowballing now, so who is next in line for some finger pointing.

[bobp]

60 pages most of which is pure speculation, wishful thinking, dreaming, conspiracy theory and now Liam Foxes desire to have a private life rather than a public revelation of his morals next it will be the moon is green cheese. Those that have made constructive comments I wish to apologise if I have stepped on your toes.

[downsizer]

Sadly this thread could have been, but has descended into full retard.

[SKB]

I suggest this thread be deleted and replaced with a new one when the purchase of a Nimrod replacement has been confirmed and announced.

[Lugzy]

i think it's fair to say the p-8 is the front runner to fill the role , with the p-1 the ranked outsider chucked in to give the impression of competition , but what if the price was right on LM's proposal ? ,

http://www.janes.com/article/54155/lmuk ... n-aircraft

[bobp]

That's an interesting proposal, I don't know how good it would be in an ISTAR role though. I'm sure that there is plenty of life left in those C130 airframes, I did hear that a little work would be needed to keep them in service centred around the wingbox and wings. How much ordinance would these planes carry, how many operators would be needed. Refuelling wouldn't be a problem as they use hose and drogue. I read somewhere that the uk special forces may get some of them when the A400 enters service.

[raven111]

That's an interesting proposal, I don't know how good it would be in an ISTAR role though. I'm sure that there is plenty of life left in those C130 airframes, I did hear that a little work would be needed to keep them in service centred around the wingbox and wings. How much ordinance would these planes carry, how many operators would be needed. Refuelling wouldn't be a problem as they use hose and drogue. I read somewhere that the uk special forces may get some of them when the A400 enters service.

Either way the cost should be a fair bit less since the airframe cost is just refurbishment rather than purchasing a new one outright.

The bulk of the cost is still mission system integration though.

[Lugzy]

Would LMUKs sc-130 j gain any head way with the MOD and the government if they suggested the conversion took place in the UK maybe with Marshall Aerospace for example ?

[arfah]

i think it's fair to say the p-8 is the front runner to fill the role , with the p-1 the ranked outsider chucked in to give the impression of competition , but what if the price was right on LM's proposal ? ,

http://www.janes.com/article/54155/lmuk ... n-aircraft

1.It's going to be difficult listening for submarines in an uninsulated cargo plane.

2.The onboard toilet isn't like you'd find in an airliner, either.

[jonas]

I suggest this thread be deleted and replaced with a new one when the purchase of a Nimrod replacement has been confirmed and announced.

Couple of points, firstly that is not within your remit even to suggest it, secondly what is the point of that when the decision has been made. If the bosses wish to close the thread that's up to them, but it would be totally undemocratic to do so, particularly at the behest of one person.

Far better to give final warnings in the first place, if this is ignored then a long holiday is in order followed by a permanent ban. At the moment things have just got very silly, but only on the very rare occasion has it got for want of a better word 'nasty'

The thread obviously gets heated as people have very strong opinions, which in my opinion is better than having a thread with little or no input whatsoever, of which there are many examples on the blog.

Have a nice day

[Pseudo]

That's an interesting proposal, I don't know how good it would be in an ISTAR role though. I'm sure that there is plenty of life left in those C130 airframes, I did hear that a little work would be needed to keep them in service centred around the wingbox and wings. How much ordinance would these planes carry, how many operators would be needed. Refuelling wouldn't be a problem as they use hose and drogue. I read somewhere that the uk special forces may get some of them when the A400 enters service.

Either way the cost should be a fair bit less since the airframe cost is just refurbishment rather than purchasing a new one outright.

Isn't that precisely the same thinking that brought us or more to the point failed to bring us MRA4?

[jonas]

60 pages most of which is pure speculation, wishful thinking, dreaming, conspiracy theory and now Liam Foxes desire to have a private life rather than a public revelation of his morals next it will be the moon is green cheese. Those that have made constructive comments I wish to apologise if I have stepped on your toes.

I might suggest that speculation, wishfull thinking, dreaming are to be found on almost any thread that people have an interest in. Conspiracy theory however is a little over the top

[jonas]

i think it's fair to say the p-8 is the front runner to fill the role , with the p-1 the ranked outsider chucked in to give the impression of competition , but what if the price was right on LM's proposal ? ,

http://www.janes.com/article/54155/lmuk ... n-aircraft

Thing is have the MOD even expressed an interest in the P1, all I have seen has come from the media and nothing official at all. Just come across this which I haven't seen before. Gives a different insight on the subject, although I don't think it's the answer by any means.

http://defencewithac.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... i-p-1.html

[Lugzy]

That's an interesting proposal, I don't know how good it would be in an ISTAR role though. I'm sure that there is plenty of life left in those C130 airframes, I did hear that a little work would be needed to keep them in service centred around the wingbox and wings. How much ordinance would these planes carry, how many operators would be needed. Refuelling wouldn't be a problem as they use hose and drogue. I read somewhere that the uk special forces may get some of them when the A400 enters service.

Either way the cost should be a fair bit less since the airframe cost is just refurbishment rather than purchasing a new one outright.

Isn't that precisely the same thinking that brought us or more to the point failed to bring us MRA4?

You do make a very painful point there , conversion/integration is probably a dirty word these days in the MOD , the chance of history repeating its self would probably damn the sc-130j proposal to the nearest bin in all honesty lol

[raven111]

That's an interesting proposal, I don't know how good it would be in an ISTAR role though. I'm sure that there is plenty of life left in those C130 airframes, I did hear that a little work would be needed to keep them in service centred around the wingbox and wings. How much ordinance would these planes carry, how many operators would be needed. Refuelling wouldn't be a problem as they use hose and drogue. I read somewhere that the uk special forces may get some of them when the A400 enters service.

Either way the cost should be a fair bit less since the airframe cost is just refurbishment rather than purchasing a new one outright.

Isn't that precisely the same thinking that brought us or more to the point failed to bring us MRA4?

The difference being that in theory the C-130J airframes aren't completely shagged and there's still actual manufacturer support.

[raven111]

On a related note how impractical would it be to convert the airframes to HC-130J specs instead to fill the SAR support gap?