Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

[raven111]

...You mean Concorde isn't the only thing which had a "no get out" clause in the contracts?

[shark bait]

...You mean Concorde isn't the only thing which had a "no get out" clause in the contracts?

On that note I think we need another concord.
We have blood hound which is great, but not quite as grand as concord.

[jimthelad]

Does anyone remember TRIGAT?!? That was a complete CF. We cant compete on all fields so pick the battles we can win. IMHO perhaps we need smaller design houses modelled on our superlative car industry. All the great British designs came out of small UK firms or the garden shed!!

[raven111]

So the Defence Industry is a modern-day British Leyland?

[marktigger]

given the history of Nimrod cock ups AEW3 anyone.

But trigat lead to the procurement of Javelin when the front runner was Gil spike from israel and i not many of our european allies went for it. I also seam to remember at the time of the descision being made a series of articles in the UK media about Israeli operations in the west bank and gaza al which happened to mention a certain anti tank missile under consideration by the UK govt.....hmmmmm funny that and the decision.

[jimthelad]

So the Defence Industry is a modern-day British Leyland?

Yes in many ways! The supplier dictates the product not the end user. TRIGAT was a classic example, nobody in the UK wanted it. It never worked and damned near killed me in one test fire. We wanted the proposed SAL MILAN with the motor upgrade and top attack. The end user needs to be consulted for one thing!! QE class carriers are a classic example of sensibility. As for Javelin, it came too late for me but daddy like!!!

[rec]

All the more reason to have more than one provider, so shipbuilding no harm in Camel Lairds building Holland class under license to improve their skill base, or for BAE to diversify shipbuilding to more than just the Clyde. Maybe even to have Gripen as well as Eurofoghter and F35?

Also we need to move away from always wanting the bespoke solution, and to rliance on ultra technology after all there is also quality in numbers. People forget that the less advanced Hurricane was the plane available in numbers, and despite the execllent Spitfire. The cheaper simpler Hurricane shot down more German planes! So there is a qualitity in numbers too.

[jonas]

All the more reason to have more than one provider, so shipbuilding no harm in Camel Lairds building Holland class under license to improve their skill base, or for BAE to diversify shipbuilding to more than just the Clyde. Maybe even to have Gripen as well as Eurofoghter and F35?

Also we need to move away from always wanting the bespoke solution, and to rliance on ultra technology after all there is also quality in numbers. People forget that the less advanced Hurricane was the plane available in numbers, and despite the execllent Spitfire. The cheaper simpler Hurricane shot down more German planes! So there is a qualitity in numbers too.

One small snag there, where are all the customers for these ships and aircraft you are going to build.

[shark bait]

One small snag there, where are all the customers for these ships and aircraft you are going to build.

Correct, the UK can't support more than one ship yard by itself. If production is split across multiple sites its just in efficient. More could be possible, but it's up to the private sector to do the rest. T

The notion that cities can return to shipbuilding is nothing more than a nostalgic dream.



Also, on a side note, grippen? Why does that keep popping up around here? Its a good aircraft but not for the UK, especially when 2 types is a struggle.

[Little J]

We need to build stuff that the world wants don't we? There's no point sending billions on R&D and then focusing on one (small) customer, that's what fooked-up the UK civil aero.

[shark bait]

We need to build stuff that the world wants don't we? There's no point sending billions on R&D and then focusing on one (small) customer, that's what fooked-up the UK civil aero.

We do, contrary to popular belief the UK's manufacturing sector is strong, and growing.

[SKB]

We do, contrary to popular belief the UK's manufacturing sector is strong, and growing.

Building other countries stuff, like Toyota cars in the UK for example. And the Mini is barely British anymore, its really a BMW.

[shark bait]

Building other countries stuff, like Toyota cars in the UK for example. And the Mini is barely British anymore, its really a BMW.

And tonnes more, any way those are both good things, it brings foreign money into the UK.

[marktigger]

we have more than one provider in terms of ship yards Appledore in devon are building OPV's for the Irish navy. wereas govt had to give BaW the contract for river class to keep glasgow ticking over

[rec]

I would harldly call Appledore a complex warship builder,

[Ninetyfifth]

Babcock run Appledore. They are participating in the UK's new carrier programme and are building world class OPVs. They are not to be sniffed at. Funnily enough, North Devon is one of the most deprived areas of England. It would be nice to see the Govt invest in the more impoverished areas of the UK rather than Scotland for a change.

See link for details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Beckett-class_OPV

[jonas]

I would harldly call Appledore a complex warship builder,

I don't see any reason why it couldn't be if Babcock was willing to put in the finance, and the government had the balls to break the stranglehold BAE has on the industry.

[rec]

I would harldly call Appledore a complex warship builder,

I don't see any reason why it couldn't be if Babcock was willing to put in the finance, and the government had the balls to break the stranglehold BAE has on the industry.

I think that is what I am trying to get at, BAE has all its eggs in one basket for surface shipbuildin (the Clyde) and if Scotland goes independent (which is probable) then what happens? So strategically BAE should split their surface ship production so it's Clyde + an English yard. Plus an alternative non BAE yard (Birkenhead?) would make sense for the Uk even if they had the spavce to build frigates but only built OPVs or Black Swan types (the potential too upgrade is not lost). What's all this got to do with MPA? well it's back to what I had posted earlier about Bespoke defence procurements which are costly, when something less complicated would do and give us quality in numbers as well. SO C275/P8 would be an option. But realistically I realise that wont happen. But the big reason Nimrod went over Budget was that BAE tried to do a bespoke solution on an old airframe where each airframe was not exactly the same dimensions. Rather than using an of the shelf common new airframe to put all the equipment in. (eg an air bus or Boeing).

[marktigger]

Why Birkenhead and why and English Yard? This is meant to be a united Kingdom of 4 countries but it seams only 2 of them count? Why not invest in Belfast and Queens Island?

[raven111]

Why Birkenhead and why and English Yard? This is meant to be a united Kingdom of 4 countries but it seams only 2 of them count? Why not invest in Belfast and Queens Island?

I think the MoD gave up on Belfast when the PIRA kept trying to blow up Harland and Wolff.

[Pseudo]

Why Birkenhead and why and English Yard? This is meant to be a united Kingdom of 4 countries but it seams only 2 of them count? Why not invest in Belfast and Queens Island?

If we're considering the prospect of Scottish Independence as a reason to diversify shipbuilding away from the Clyde, Northern Ireland might not be the best choice. As I understand it Scottish independence could have a significant destabilising effect on Northern Ireland, since while Republican and Unionist leaders may have (to varying degrees) become domesticated politicians many of their supporters remain militant and Scottish independence is as good an opportunity as any to rejuvenate the dream of a 32-county Ireland.

Ironically, a renewal of sectarian hostilities in Northern Ireland after Scottish independence would probably ignite hostilities along the same divide in Glasgow and Edinburgh where independence will destabilise the social settlement with the loss of the common cause of independence and the bogeyman of Westminster.

[shark bait]

Where are all the ships going to come from to fill the order books of these 3 shipyards? We have to order ships we don't want to keep a single yard running, never mind 3.

If the demand was there, more yards would already be there.

[rec]

Why Birkenhead and why and English Yard? This is meant to be a united Kingdom of 4 countries but it seams only 2 of them count? Why not invest in Belfast and Queens Island?

If we're considering the prospect of Scottish Independence as a reason to diversify shipbuilding away from the Clyde, Northern Ireland might not be the best choice. As I understand it Scottish independence could have a significant destabilising effect on Northern Ireland, since while Republican and Unionist leaders may have (to varying degrees) become domesticated politicians many of their supporters remain militant and Scottish independence is as good an opportunity as any to rejuvenate the dream of a 32-county Ireland.

Ironically, a renewal of sectarian hostilities in Northern Ireland after Scottish independence would probably ignite hostilities along the same divide in Glasgow and Edinburgh where independence will destabilise the social settlement with the loss of the common cause of independence and the bogeyman of Westminster.

Sorry, I thought H&W were completely close and gone, like Swan Hunter

[marktigger]

the main facilities of the dry dock are still there and are being used for building wind farms and refitting oil rigs!

But people seam to push the oh well Northern ireland will go into an Irish republic yes it will if the majority of the population see it as advantageous. Make it worthwhile for them to stay and they will as opposed to the current stratagey of bankrupt the country with excessive government and then penalise them for the local MLA's bankrupting the country. Clear out the corrupt local parliment and invest in real jobs and make being in the UK worthwhile for Northern Ireland.

[Cooper]

But people seam to push the oh well Northern ireland will go into an Irish republic yes it will if the majority of the population see it as advantageous. Make it worthwhile for them to stay and they will

Unfortunately that doesn't seem to work..Scotland is having money thrown at it with defence projects, yet the SNP keeps getting more popular and support for independence is on the rise again.

It's against all common sense and logic from an economic standpoint but that doesn't matter when it comes to good old fashioned tribal identity politics of the madhouse that has overtaken the Scots, I fail to see why Northern Ireland would be any different.