Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

[Halidon]

As far as a probe and drogue system on P8, I very much doubt whether any work has been done on that score, if they are only just testing the boom system on it.
In any case why would they, the US isn't going to use it , so if that is wanted by the UK then we are going to have to stump up the cash, and that is going to cost (a lot).
Both India and Australia's MRTT were bought with the capability to operate both the boom and probe and drogue systems. Whereas the UK MOD in it's wisdome decided we only need probe and drogue. Another case of the bean counters winning over the requirements needed.

So the next question is, what costs more - fitting P-8 with a probe (possibly same as E-3) or retro fitting Voyagers with booms.

Given that the Voyager's boom is already tested, certified, and available on the market I find it hard to believe it is not the lower-cost option.

[raven111]

As far as a probe and drogue system on P8, I very much doubt whether any work has been done on that score, if they are only just testing the boom system on it.
In any case why would they, the US isn't going to use it , so if that is wanted by the UK then we are going to have to stump up the cash, and that is going to cost (a lot).
Both India and Australia's MRTT were bought with the capability to operate both the boom and probe and drogue systems. Whereas the UK MOD in it's wisdome decided we only need probe and drogue. Another case of the bean counters winning over the requirements needed.

So the next question is, what costs more - fitting P-8 with a probe (possibly same as E-3) or retro fitting Voyagers with booms.

Given that the Voyager's boom is already tested, certified, and available on the market I find it hard to believe it is not the lower-cost option.

Especially when the alternative is probe-fitting all the C-17s and Airseekers too.

[Halidon]

The video accompanying this CNN article includes a fairly decent unclassified demonstration of how good the P-8's cameras are (plug plug plug)

[OldSoldier8888]

Given budget restraints I think initially leasing 4 or 5 P.8s would be a good idea particularly if it enabled the RAF to acquire a ninth C.17 which would go down very well with that service and the Army.

[jonas]

Given budget restraints I think initially leasing 4 or 5 P.8s would be a good idea particularly if it enabled the RAF to acquire a ninth C.17 which would go down very well with that service and the Army.

Why do we need a ninth C17, apart from those which we already have, we have on order 22 A400's. Although they are delayed and have some troubles at the moment, these things will be ironed out, (hopefully without any further tragedies) Keep a few C130J's for special forces use, and a further C17 would be a luxury we can do without at the moment imo.

MPA is a top priority, and that is where the cash needs to be spent.

[CR4ZYHOR5E]

Some of the posts about the possibility of salvaging kit from MR4A to put on P-8s send shivers down my spine. If you could think of the more expensive way of regenerating MPA I'd be interested to hear it.

Would be nice to see the U.K following the Australian buy of P-8s and Triton. I guess we will announce a purchase/lease of 6-8 P-8s in the SDSR. Enough to say the MPA gap has been plugged, nothing more.

[CR4ZYHOR5E]

Jonas, I have suggested that there are merits to an additional C-17 order to preserve the life/hours on existing airframes (see separate thread), but agree that this falls behind MPA in terms of priority.

[shark bait]

Some of the posts about the possibility of salvaging kit from MR4A to put on P-8s send shivers down my spine. If you could think of the more expensive way of regenerating MPA I'd be interested to hear it.

Would be nice to see the U.K following the Australian buy of P-8s and Triton. I guess we will announce a purchase/lease of 6-8 P-8s in the SDSR. Enough to say the MPA gap has been plugged, nothing more.

Lease then purchase of the P8 is exactly what we need to see.
What would we use the Triton for? I don't think its necessary, and a long way down the list of kit we need.

[jonas]

Some of the posts about the possibility of salvaging kit from MR4A to put on P-8s send shivers down my spine. If you could think of the more expensive way of regenerating MPA I'd be interested to hear it.

Would be nice to see the U.K following the Australian buy of P-8s and Triton. I guess we will announce a purchase/lease of 6-8 P-8s in the SDSR. Enough to say the MPA gap has been plugged, nothing more.

I agree with you on the issue of salvalging old kit from MRA4, good as it might have been.
In regard to P8, for the UK I would sooner see an order for 12 P8 and no Triton. Let us get back into the game of being one of the best ASW forces in the world from basics, then we can start to spend money on integrated P8/Triton.
Unfortunately, much the same as carrier ops, in regards to ASW we have been losing our edge, we are still up there at the front but we need to be at the top.. I am not convinced yet that placing such reliance on UAV's is the right way to go.

[jonas]

Jonas, I have suggested that there are merits to an additional C-17 order to preserve the life/hours on existing airframes (see separate thread), but agree that this falls behind MPA in terms of priority.

I agree with you that there are merits to purchasing another C17, but do we really need it in light of newer aircraft begining to come online.Yes as you say it would be prudent, but when can you accuse our MOD of being just that.
Being a pragmatist, I would discount any further purchase of C17 as being likely

[CR4ZYHOR5E]

I agree it's a difficult 'pitch' to describe a Triton buy as necessary, particularly where there are other priorities, though I confess to liking the 'Broad Area' MOPS that the USN is intending to employ...i.e. using Triton to maintain near continuous maritime surveillance whilst leaving the P-8s to focus on more specific needs.

If the U.K commit to a lease/buy of P-8s (even in small numbers) it will be welcome news.

[jonas]

I agree it's a difficult 'pitch' to describe a Triton buy as necessary, particularly where there are other priorities, though I confess to liking the 'Broad Area' MOPS that the USN is intending to employ...i.e. using Triton to maintain near continuous maritime surveillance whilst leaving the P-8s to focus on more specific needs.

If the U.K commit to a lease/buy of P-8s (even in small numbers) it will be welcome news.

Honestly I just want to see the UK commit to buying P8, if it means a small initial number then that would make me happy. We can go on from there, much as we did with C17

[shark bait]

I would call it wasteful.
Do we need broad area severance beyond what a possible P8 and possible R1 could offer? I dont think we do. The US wants to see wants going on in the pacific all the time, we dont need to.

[Old RN]

In terms of surveillance, what about radar satellites? South Africa has just bought a Kondor-E S-band SAR satellite from Russia, launched last December. It has a resolution of 1-2 meters and total cost to South Africa was about $120m, including ground station. Obviously UK could not buy from the Russians but IIRC the Germans have three similar satellites that were built in EU. It would seem to me a cheaper (and world wide) capability that the Triton?

[jonas]

In terms of surveillance, what about radar satellites? South Africa has just bought a Kondor-E S-band SAR satellite from Russia, launched last December. It has a resolution of 1-2 meters and total cost to South Africa was about $120m, including ground station. Obviously UK could not buy from the Russians but IIRC the Germans have three similar satellites that were built in EU. It would seem to me a cheaper (and world wide) capability that the Triton?

Also in time of hostiliies when needed, will be a prime target for peer countries anti satelite missiles.

[shark bait]

Once it's up there certainly a cheaper option. However you can only look in the area where the satellite is looking, you have no real control over that.
To be effective you would need lots.

[Old RN]

The relook time at any point on earth is about 4 days. The Germans have three in orbit which gives you a virtually daily potential any where in the world!

[shark bait]

Its a totally feasible method if you have the numbers, and already exists furthering the reasons I think the triton would be a waste.

Resolution is also not an issue, you can see what's available commercially these days and its pretty great. I think its safe to assume military and intelligence will have better sensors.

http://www.janes.com/article/51220/iran ... nother-day

Does any one know what capability the uk has here? I've never seen anything. I've always assumed we piggy baked on the Americans through intelligence sharing.

[OldSoldier8888]

I agree with CRAZYHORSE that there are merits in purchasing a 9th C17A Globemaster.This aircraft,much loved by the RAF, has twice the payload of the troubled A400M, is available now, adds valuable capability for reinforcing bases like the Falkland Isles, participating in military interventions, such as the French intervention in Mali, and ,of course, in taking aid to disaster areas.Presumably some of the costs of the latter operations could be met from the Aid Budget.
As Jonas has pointed out restoring Mp capability is a very high priority and I guess the idea of an intial leasing of 4 or 5 P8 Poseidon is to enable a quick build up of capability to take place Under the Seedcorn Initiative some 32 personnel have served with Allied Air Forces and could form the crews and trainers for the new aircraft.

[RetroSicotte]

One would imagine that if any 9th C-17 was being considered, then it is to be decided after SDSR2015, for more than the obvious reason. MPA is a crucial acquirement not in a strategic value (despite that it is) but because the politicians up top see it as a "checkbox" that is causing them negative headlines pretty much every single time defence comes up.

That is what's driving them to regard it as priority number 1 for this SDSR.

Until they've figured out what cost is going to that, it being their 'embarrassment', only they will they look at what funds are around for another C-17. Something I doubt will happen. The funds are needed just to keep what we have, let alone get anything new.

[marktigger]

the Chinese are now challenging the drone patrols with jammers which was the next logical step. Drones are only useful where you have no air or EW threat.

[downsizer]

The ship has long sailed on any more C17s.

[RichardIC]

And at over $200 million a pop I'm quite relieved about that. There are other priorities and P-8 is exceptionally near the top over a very long list.

[shark bait]

And at over $200 million a pop I'm quite relieved about that. There are other priorities and P-8 is exceptionally near the top over a very long list.

Capacity wise it does cost the same as atlas though....

But yes, MPA should higher on the list. I think that is one of the few things than can be unanimously agreed around here, MPA is near the top of everyone's list.

[Jdam]

How will us leasing a few planes rather than buying them complicate us wanting to integrate our own weapons into them?