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Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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bobp
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby bobp » 03 Nov 2015, 06:28

The story written in the Sunday Times has not been repeated by any other papers, or military sites. Can we assume that it was just another story without credibility?

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby marktigger » 03 Nov 2015, 09:29

Mercator wrote:@Gab
Australia went with the mk54 as well. And passed on integrating the MU-90 onto the P3s a few years ago because it was going to cost around A$200M. Consider what a high-alt stingray program would cost. It won't be cheap going it alone.

And what's the sense in going it alone with MPA anyway? It's usually a team sport. It never hurts for everyone to be able to use the same bouys and weapons. I get that it makes sense to go it alone on some national capabilities, but I don't think that case is as strong with MPA (who often deploy in coalition) and with so few aircraft. Save your money for something more useful.

Mercator wrote:@Gab
Australia went with the mk54 as well. And passed on integrating the MU-90 onto the P3s a few years ago because it was going to cost around A$200M. Consider what a high-alt stingray program would cost. It won't be cheap going it alone.

And what's the sense in going it alone with MPA anyway? It's usually a team sport. It never hurts for everyone to be able to use the same bouys and weapons. I get that it makes sense to go it alone on some national capabilities, but I don't think that case is as strong with MPA (who often deploy in coalition) and with so few aircraft. Save your money for something more useful.



yes and close our production lines down and make our defence industry workers redundant? by making our own we also continue R&D more jobs and we spend our tax money within the country we aren't adding more to the import/export deficit. we could also export to other countries bringing in money to the country.....Need I go on!

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby Gabriele » 03 Nov 2015, 09:56

yes and close our production lines down and make our defence industry workers redundant? by making our own we also continue R&D more jobs and we spend our tax money within the country we aren't adding more to the import/export deficit. we could also export to other countries bringing in money to the country.....Need I go on!


Very nice in theory, but if governments do not put the money in that, it does not work.
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby jonas » 03 Nov 2015, 10:18

jimthelad wrote:No other credible outlest have jumped on the band wagon for P8 cancellation so either someone has been fitted with a .38 implant, the press has been muzzled (not really likely no matter how much we want it), or the 'leak' is more of a wet patch.

I dint think the leased airframes are more than a temporary lend until the serials come off the production line. AFAIK there is not the budget to allow the crewing for more than 1 sqn and 1 OCU.


Exactly, the only rumours have come from one source "Sunday Times" not the first time by a long shot that it has been miles off the mark.

Thanks for reply on the leased airframes.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby jonas » 03 Nov 2015, 10:28

This was one of the more interesting written questions asked in Parliament yesterday 2nd Nov. I very much look forward to the reply.

"Asked by Douglas Chapman
(Dunfermline and West Fife)
Asked on: 02 November 2015
Ministry of Defence
14355
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, how many service personnel who took part in the Seedcorn Initiative from 2011 to 2015 and are still currently serving were based on 1 November 2015 in (a) the UK, (b) the US and (c) elsewhere.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby Tony Williams » 03 Nov 2015, 10:41

marktigger wrote:yes and close our production lines down and make our defence industry workers redundant? by making our own we also continue R&D more jobs and we spend our tax money within the country we aren't adding more to the import/export deficit. we could also export to other countries bringing in money to the country.....Need I go on!


What production lines? We don't make any of the MPA candidates here, or (currently) the systems which would need to go in them. We would have to set up new production facilities to do either.

In my view there are only three cases in which setting up factories to make our own weapon systems, instead of buying from abroad, makes sense:

1. There is nothing suitable, or anywhere near as good, available from elsewhere.

2. It is vital to national security to keep design and construction in house (the Trident subs being the most obvious example).

3. There is a healthy export market in prospect which will keep production running for the foreseeable future.

Otherwise we just find ourselves establishing factories to make a limited run of items at a high price, before closing them down again.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby Pseudo » 03 Nov 2015, 12:00

Tony Williams wrote:
marktigger wrote:yes and close our production lines down and make our defence industry workers redundant? by making our own we also continue R&D more jobs and we spend our tax money within the country we aren't adding more to the import/export deficit. we could also export to other countries bringing in money to the country.....Need I go on!


What production lines? We don't make any of the MPA candidates here, or (currently) the systems which would need to go in them. We would have to set up new production facilities to do either.

In my view there are only three cases in which setting up factories to make our own weapon systems, instead of buying from abroad, makes sense:

1. There is nothing suitable, or anywhere near as good, available from elsewhere.

2. It is vital to national security to keep design and construction in house (the Trident subs being the most obvious example).

3. There is a healthy export market in prospect which will keep production running for the foreseeable future.

Otherwise we just find ourselves establishing factories to make a limited run of items at a high price, before closing them down again.

I think that I'd add to that:

4. To maintain a base of expertise that will allow for domestic development of future weapons systems or to take a major role in future multilateral development projects.

I can see how that point could be used to justify just about anything and everything, so it has to be tempered by a "keeping our hand in on a relevant project doesn't mean we have to have our fingers in every project" approach.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby Gabriele » 03 Nov 2015, 13:06

I will also ask a cruel but necessary question:

in purely strategic terms, does it make any sense to babble about national industry capability while

- Depending 100% from US imagery and surveillance satellites, and in good measure strategic communications ones too
- Having enormous capability gaps which negate a sovereign, unaided freedom of action in several scenarios not just because of scale of effort considerations, but because some capabilities are entirely not available anymore?

In strategic terms, being able to build (often at out of market reality costs) some items at home, does serve a real strategic purpose? In which scenario does the UK have the time to reev up its national shipbuilding capability to make up for war losses these days, for example?

I see the merits of national industry capability, and they are many. But you have to do it right and within a wider strategy for it having any real sense.

We've just learned that yet another piece of FRES SV (the specialist steel) comes from Sweden. In light of this, does it serve any long-term purpose to assemble the pieces in the UK?
Good for jobs until it lasts. And then we're back to square one.

Worry about having no MPA capability before you worry about where the MPA is assembled. At this point, the damage to industrial capability is already done and will only be fixed with major investment aiming at the long term.
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby jonas » 03 Nov 2015, 14:13

All this speculation based on uproven facts, from unamed 'sources' from one unreliable sunday newspaper. ;)

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby shark bait » 03 Nov 2015, 15:00

Pseudo wrote:4. To maintain a base of expertise that will allow for domestic development of future weapons systems or to take a major role in future multilateral development projects.


I think that is one of the most important points. Not all of our kit needs to be UK produced, but at least something from each sector should be. That way we have the ability to build whatever we want if we needed to.

Suppose we are completely reliant on US kit, and then one day we are forced into a conflict the Americans don't agree with and refuse to sell us any more kit. Our defense would be seriously screwed. We need national capability. (Plus defense spending multiplies though the manufacturing industry many time)
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby bobp » 03 Nov 2015, 15:18

Sadly uk manufacture has been in decline for years. It has now got to the point where the education system is no longer turning out plumbers, electricians, painters, joiners, welders, machinists, fitters, technicians, engineers, and the list goes on. Any regeneration of manufacturing would therefore take years to accomplish.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby jonas » 03 Nov 2015, 15:25

shark bait wrote:
Pseudo wrote:4. To maintain a base of expertise that will allow for domestic development of future weapons systems or to take a major role in future multilateral development projects.


I think that is one of the most important points. Not all of our kit needs to be UK produced, but at least something from each sector should be. That way we have the ability to build whatever we want if we needed to.

Suppose we are completely reliant on US kit, and then one day we are forced into a conflict the Americans don't agree with and refuse to sell us any more kit. Our defense would be seriously screwed. We need national capability. (Plus defense spending multiplies though the manufacturing industry many time)


We are already reliant on US kit, Successor submarines have a very large input of US/UK equipment probably more than you think. The main weapons system is of US design/manufacture. No use of a British warhead without the means to deliver it.

F35B completely reliant on the US.

Typhoon many critical parts sourced from the US, one of the reasons we cannot sell them to anyone we want without US approval.

Astute submarines, whilst not now reliant on the US, without their help we would still not be at the stage we are in the programme.

Whilst I agree we need a national capability, it is not going to happen. Do the maths in how we resurect our aircraft, shipbuilding, and heavy armoured industries that have all gone to the wall, then tell me we can do it.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby jonas » 03 Nov 2015, 15:32

bobp wrote:Sadly uk manufacture has been in decline for years. It has now got to the point where the education system is no longer turning out plumbers, electricians, painters, joiners, welders, machinists, fitters, technicians, engineers, and the list goes on. Any regeneration of manufacturing would therefore take years to accomplish.


Completely agree, and without a massive injection of taxpayers money any regeneration is out of the question.Only in a time of national crisis are the British public in the least interested in defence matters.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby shark bait » 03 Nov 2015, 15:37

jonas wrote:We are already reliant on US kit, Successor submarines have a very large input of US/UK equipment probably more than you think. The main weapons system is of US design/manufacture. No use of a British warhead without the means to deliver it.

F35B completely reliant on the US.

Typhoon many critical parts sourced from the US, one of the reasons we cannot sell them to anyone we want without US approval.

Astute submarines, whilst not now reliant on the US, without their help we would still not be at the stage we are in the programme.

Whilst I agree we need a national capability, it is not going to happen. Do the maths in how we resurect our aircraft, shipbuilding, and heavy armoured industries that have all gone to the wall, then tell me we can do it.


We are reliant on many countries, that's globalization, and we should make the most of it.
We don't need to resurrect those industries, perhaps with the exception of heavy armored, they are very strong.
We could produce a 5th gen aircraft by our self.
We are producing war ships by our self.
We will produce nuclear subs by our self.
Sure all of those will use foreign components, that doesn't mean its not a national industry.

I'm not saying we need to or should build everything its self, but I think the uk industry is strong enough to do so if we really had to.
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby downsizer » 03 Nov 2015, 15:38

I don't give a shit where it comes from, I want the best kit to do my job.

U.K. Armed Forces don't exist to provide jobs to British industry, we exist to win wars.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby shark bait » 03 Nov 2015, 15:40

downsizer wrote:U.K. Armed Forces don't exist to provide jobs to British industry, we exist to win wars.


Try telling a politician that.
All military spending is about job creation.
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby downsizer » 03 Nov 2015, 16:11

No shit. I did not know that.

Thats why we keep getting lumbered with crap we don't want or need. :roll:

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby Tiny Toy » 03 Nov 2015, 16:35

Don't get me started on "Windows for Warships". A proprietary closed-source OS with well-known unpatched security vulnerabilities and a backdoor for a foreign government? Sounds like an excellent choice, not.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 03 Nov 2015, 17:50

TT, you do know that there are Windows... and Windows?

With the demise of DEC, the at the time best multi-threaded TP operating system was discontinued (in development; supported on installed sites) and our friend Bill "bought" the whole original team, to dig "his" Windows out of a dead end.

I wasn't able to determine from your link which version this "W for Warships" was and is based on?

There were, at the time (when these choices were made) better multi-threaded TP environments, but e.g the one that all airline reservation systems used (for world-wide concurrency) were
A. dedicated to a mainframe environment (another reactor onboard, just to run one of those), and
B. had about 32 (about, I said) developers who knew the complex OS well enough to be able to oversee/ QA unit and integration tests

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby Pseudo » 03 Nov 2015, 18:03

ArmChairCivvy wrote:I wasn't able to determine from your link which version this "W for Warships" was and is based on?

I think that it was Windows 2000 based, but that's come from some dim recess of my memory, so I might be misremembering.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby bobp » 03 Nov 2015, 18:14

It was windows 2000 based back then in 2004, I don't know if they have improved it since.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby Tiny Toy » 03 Nov 2015, 18:21

Pseudo wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:I wasn't able to determine from your link which version this "W for Warships" was and is based on?

I think that it was Windows 2000 based, but that's come from some dim recess of my memory, so I might be misremembering.

That's correct. There is some more information about how this was steamrollered through in the face of opposition from the technicians here - I think AMS is now called Aspyre or something like that.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby Ron5 » 03 Nov 2015, 18:43

downsizer wrote:I don't give a shit where it comes from, I want the best kit to do my job.

U.K. Armed Forces don't exist to provide jobs to British industry, we exist to win wars.


That's bull. Go read about the last UK only war, the Falklands, and see what the British industrial base did to support the military. A smart military will care about maintaining an appropriate native industrial base otherwise it will soon become dependent on others for very basic stuff. And subject to military courses of action being dictated by foreign suppliers.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby jonas » 03 Nov 2015, 19:00

shark bait wrote:
jonas wrote:We are already reliant on US kit, Successor submarines have a very large input of US/UK equipment probably more than you think. The main weapons system is of US design/manufacture. No use of a British warhead without the means to deliver it.

F35B completely reliant on the US.

Typhoon many critical parts sourced from the US, one of the reasons we cannot sell them to anyone we want without US approval.

Astute submarines, whilst not now reliant on the US, without their help we would still not be at the stage we are in the programme.

Whilst I agree we need a national capability, it is not going to happen. Do the maths in how we resurect our aircraft, shipbuilding, and heavy armoured industries that have all gone to the wall, then tell me we can do it.


We are reliant on many countries, that's globalization, and we should make the most of it.
We don't need to resurrect those industries, perhaps with the exception of heavy armored, they are very strong.
We could produce a 5th gen aircraft by our self.
We are producing war ships by our self.
We will produce nuclear subs by our self.
Sure all of those will use foreign components, that doesn't mean its not a national industry.

I'm not saying we need to or should build everything its self, but I think the uk industry is strong enough to do so if we really had to.


No these industries are not very strong, yes we are building warships reliant on the UK government orders. Yes we are building nuclear subs, but still with the help of the US. No we could not produce a 5th generation aircraft on our own, not without massive investment by the government, which we will not get.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Postby shark bait » 03 Nov 2015, 19:51

downsizer wrote:No shit. I did not know that.

Thats why we keep getting lumbered with crap we don't want or need. :roll:


Like typhoon, queen Elizabeth, brimstone ect ?
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