UK Defence Forum

downsizer wrote:No. We need more.

I’m not going to argue that the UK should not have more Fighters, but are you saying that to maintain 4 x 9 a/c squadrons the RAF/FAA would need more than 52 a/c in the fleet?

No, I'm saying we need to buy more full stop.

for me the base line we need of F-35B is 80 jets with the split being a 30 jet naval strike wing and a 30 jet land strike wing a 10 jet OCU plus 3 jet TEU leaving 7 jets in the pool

In the short to medium term I can see the UK only having three frontline F-35B squadrons (10 a/c each) and QCU with a similar number of airframes and a small attrition reserve made up of the remaining eight. This would allow there to be a surge to provide one carrier with a full airwing if needed, but like the Joint Harrier Force, unless it is predetermined that the Carrier always gets priority, there is going to be conflict between those wanting to deploy the F-35 force on land and those who want them embarked on the Carrier. Hopefully we will not end up where we were during operations in Afghanistan where the Carriers went without Harriers being regularly embarked, and then only to maintain the pilot carrier qualification in the main.

This time around the carriers would host the F35 in a Herrick style operation. Far more secure than a fixed desert airbase.

downsizer wrote:No, I'm saying we need to buy more full stop.

Attaboy! If I could give you 100 likes, I would

I don't remember it being confirmed anywhere but then again my memory ain't what it used to be, but according to RAdm Mike Utley via Richard Scott, the initial Queen Elizabeth deployment is planned to be with 16 F-35B's plus 4 Merlin ASW & 3 Merlin Crowsnest with additional Merlin Mk 4's embarked on the supporting fleet.

Personally, I think that's pretty darned good after such a long period of the RN being out of the business. It will be an impressive sight.

Totally agree, and there might even be one or more MV-22s though that has still to be decided on.

Ron5

You can, like so x100

Ron5 wrote:I don't remember it being confirmed anywhere but then again my memory ain't what it used to be, but according to RAdm Mike Utley via Richard Scott, the initial Queen Elizabeth deployment is planned to be with 16 F-35B's plus 4 Merlin ASW & 3 Merlin Crowsnest with additional Merlin Mk 4's embarked on the supporting fleet.

Personally, I think that's pretty darned good after such a long period of the RN being out of the business. It will be an impressive sight.

But how many of the 16 F35B will belong to the UK?

Ron5 wrote:Personally, I think that's pretty darned good after such a long period of the RN being out of the business. It will be an impressive sight.

Indeed it would be, but if that deployment is going to be a FoN operation in the SCS, and in light of what has happened over the last few months, then I would like an extra USMC Squadron on board and an Oz/Kiwi amphibious group as escort. Not to beard the lion, but to make the statement that we haven't been cowed.

dmereifield wrote:

Ron5 wrote:I don't remember it being confirmed anywhere but then again my memory ain't what it used to be, but according to RAdm Mike Utley via Richard Scott, the initial Queen Elizabeth deployment is planned to be with 16 F-35B's plus 4 Merlin ASW & 3 Merlin Crowsnest with additional Merlin Mk 4's embarked on the supporting fleet.

Personally, I think that's pretty darned good after such a long period of the RN being out of the business. It will be an impressive sight.

But how many of the 16 F35B will belong to the UK?

8 plus 8, all totally under UK operational command.

Caribbean wrote:

Ron5 wrote:Personally, I think that's pretty darned good after such a long period of the RN being out of the business. It will be an impressive sight.

Indeed it would be, but if that deployment is going to be a FoN operation in the SCS, and in light of what has happened over the last few months, then I would like an extra USMC Squadron on board and an Oz/Kiwi amphibious group as escort. Not to beard the lion, but to make the statement that we haven't been cowed.

For a first deployment? seems a trifle foolhardy.

Lord Jim wrote:Totally agree, and there might even be one or more MV-22s though that has still to be decided on.

I have not read that.

Ron5 wrote:

Caribbean wrote:

Ron5 wrote:Personally, I think that's pretty darned good after such a long period of the RN being out of the business. It will be an impressive sight.

Indeed it would be, but if that deployment is going to be a FoN operation in the SCS, and in light of what has happened over the last few months, then I would like an extra USMC Squadron on board and an Oz/Kiwi amphibious group as escort. Not to beard the lion, but to make the statement that we haven't been cowed.

For a first deployment? seems a trifle foolhardy.

Well I am still surprised that they will be coming our way for the first deployment, but if she does I hope they take the senic route via Sydney, not sure if the Kiwis can help out as far as I know both frigates are still getting the upgrade in Canada, but Nuship Aotearoa should be in commission by then

Ron5 wrote:

dmereifield wrote:

Ron5 wrote:I don't remember it being confirmed anywhere but then again my memory ain't what it used to be, but according to RAdm Mike Utley via Richard Scott, the initial Queen Elizabeth deployment is planned to be with 16 F-35B's plus 4 Merlin ASW & 3 Merlin Crowsnest with additional Merlin Mk 4's embarked on the supporting fleet.

Personally, I think that's pretty darned good after such a long period of the RN being out of the business. It will be an impressive sight.

But how many of the 16 F35B will belong to the UK?

8 plus 8, all totally under UK operational command.

A little underwhelming (8 UK F35Bs) from my point of view, though the overall UK package of assets that constitute the carrier group will be very impressive

The UK carriers will almost always carry USMC jets and at this time the USMC are looking to dedicate one of it F-35B sqn's to the UK carriers as for the first deployment of 8 x 8 =16 5th gen jets in anyone's back yard is not to be taken lightly this will grow to 12 x 12 24 jets as a norm in the coming years

However if the UK could get to a front line of 4 sqn's with 16 jets this could be a good out come as each carrier could operate 1 sqn giving them a base line fix wing airwing of 16 jets with RAF and USMC jets fill out as needed to 24 or 32 jets

Tempest414 wrote:The UK carriers will almost always carry USMC jets

I don't think that will be the case. Particularly given the recent USMC restructure announced that may cut the overall number of F-35B available. Quite rightly I'd expect the USMC to only embark F-35B to QE Class when they're going to an area, or on an exercise that piques US interest. For them always to be embarked you'd expect the USMC to be having a larger than bare minimum basing in the UK.

Timmymagic wrote:I don't think that will be the case. Particularly given the recent USMC restructure announced that may cut the overall number of F-35B available. Quite rightly I'd expect the USMC to only embark F-35B to QE Class when they're going to an area, or on an exercise that piques US interest. For them always to be embarked you'd expect the USMC to be having a larger than bare minimum basing in the UK.

I would agree that things change all the time and for me this is why I feel the UK needs 60 front line F-35B's with 30 dedicated to the naval strike force and 30 to a land strike force this allows the both the RN and RAF to get on with there main tasks and support the other where and when needed

Barely 6 weeks ago the NAO published the review of the equipment budget for the next 10 years stating its was complete fantasy given the budget they had! Yet we’re adding more on top.

I hardly think what has transpired in the interim is going to improve the financial position.

Timmymagic wrote: you'd expect the USMC to be having a larger than bare minimum basing in the UK.

Should there be USMC B's flying out of the UK to support a Marines bde in Norway, would you think they were to use RAF bases with Bs in them or USAFE basis, which only ever have A's?
- I know about carriers, but most of the time they are elsewhere than in (far) North of Virginia

SW1 wrote:Barely 6 weeks ago the NAO published the review of the equipment budget for the next 10 years stating its was complete fantasy given the budget they had! Yet we’re adding more on top.

I hardly think what has transpired in the interim is going to improve the financial position.

Don't be such a drama queen. The NAO just pointed out the proposed spending exceeds the projected budget. Committed spending, on the other hand, does not.

In the companies I've worked for, if you didn't have a plan or proposal to exceed, you were considered rather dull. But then again, they were highly successful.

SW1 wrote:Barely 6 weeks ago the NAO published the review of the equipment budget for the next 10 years stating its was complete fantasy given the budget they had! Yet we’re adding more on top.

I hardly think what has transpired in the interim is going to improve the financial position.

There are two known's here the first is 48 F-35B's is not enough the second is at 2% GDP we can't have all 138. Also what we are now looking at is Tempest be pushed back due to lack of funds but we need to keep BAE Warton doing something. Maybe we will have to drop the order of F-35 to 90 from 138 and order 24 more Typhoon's as a stop gap the RAF go to a 8 sqn typhoon force and 2 F-35 sqn's = 10 and the RN have 3 sqn's of 10 jets

Tempest

Well very much depends on your aspirations are, and aspiration are tempered by fiscal reality. The number is similar to a number of other nations however by all means buy more it will simply mean cutting deeper else were..

Samlesbury is the main production site is and we’re engineering on boarding occurs but engineering resource to the program is more spread out. However any UK order would have little impact on current to medium term workload as it’s rate is based on lot ordered for all customers.

The next question would be is what are you trying to keep busy with tempest if that is its main intention. It would predominantly be the engineering R&D and integration side to which additional orders for f35 does little for. I suspect the main investments on manned fast jets over the coming years will be framed around upgrade of f35 to block 4 standard and of upgrade of typhoon with regard to asea radar. I cant see us buying more of either at this time.