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F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.

How do you feel about the F-35B for the RN and RAF? (2 votes per member)

GOOD choice for the Royal Navy
120
44%
BAD choice for the Royal Navy
10
4%
Uncertain (RN)
14
5%
GOOD choice for the Royal Air Force
49
18%
BAD choice for the Royal Air Force
37
14%
Uncertain (RAF)
40
15%
 
Total votes: 270

seaspear
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby seaspear » 28 Feb 2019, 03:16

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/02 ... rce=clavis
An interesting article addressing those concerns of the information downloading and the time taken ,this would potentially enable the aircraft to be ready quicker

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby seaspear » 03 Mar 2019, 07:34

https://defence-blog.com/news/source-is ... syria.html
An interesting read about claims of radar to detect low observable aircraft perhaps there should be a money back guarantee

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 03 Mar 2019, 08:00

seaspear wrote:https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/02/27/how-the-us-air-forces-kessel-run-team-plans-to-solve-one-of-the-f-35-programs-biggest-headaches/?utm_source=clavis
An interesting article addressing those concerns of the information downloading and the time taken ,this would potentially enable the aircraft to be ready quicker


Yes, it underlines two (separate) problems that need to be fixed - though the approach taken to both is similar: "

While the Mad Hatter effort kicked off in October, teams have only been coding since January. Before that, Lockheed and the Air Force sat at the negotiating table, solidifying how much reach the government would have into ALIS and what data it would own.

Roper views Mad Hatter as a pathfinder for the program office’s own agile software development effort for F-35 Block 4 upgrades, which it calls Continuous Capability Development and Delivery."

The first para of the quote just shows that
- the organisational and legal framework has not been very nimble until now
- nor the software development approach 'agile'

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 03 Mar 2019, 08:09

seaspear wrote:https://defence-blog.com/news/source-israeli-f-35-destroyed-chinese-made-radar-during-airstrikes-in-syria.html
An interesting read about claims of radar to detect low observable aircraft perhaps there should be a money back guarantee

- the other side seems to be winning, though
- no doubt that these 'field tests' are highly valued by both stealth a/c and counter-radar makers
"The JY-27 radar of the Chinese manufacturer CETC is a fully solid-state and fully coherent long-range early warning system. It is designed and developed to provide early warning information and detect low-observable air targets in so-called “Stealth technology”, included F-35 and F-22 fighter aircraft."

The only difference between the Spanish and Syria civil wars is that the former only had one "Guernica" whereas the latter has had too many to count
- lots of conventional - aside from unconventional - mass murder, though, in both
Regardless, outside parties :( get their latest gear tested and can hone it further.

seaspear
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby seaspear » 03 Mar 2019, 11:19

Of course American fighters like the f35 and f22 in Syria have flown with devices that mask the stealth to not give away too much for the long term Israel is not

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby seaspear » 03 Mar 2019, 11:58

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/ ... eight-more
Singapore announces plans to buy 4 of the F35 and may buy 8 more

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby SW1 » 03 Mar 2019, 12:38

Back in the day Singapore very keen on harrier and a significant push was made to get them onboard, its lack of supersonic ability in the air defence role ultimately made them walk away. There very keen on austere basing options to there national defence.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby NickC » 09 Mar 2019, 13:49

More revelations on the Autononomic Logistics Information System now that Pentagon is making plans to award Lockheed Martin a new contract to re-architect the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter's troubled ALIS 'Alice'.

"The F-35 fighter jet’s logistics backbone has proven so clunky and burdensome to work with that the U.S. Air Force’s instructor pilots, as well as students learning to fly the aircraft, have stopped using the system, confirmed Col. Paul Moga, commander of Eglin’s 33rd Fighter Squadron."

“The functionality in ALIS with regards to TMS — the training management system — was such a source of frustration and a time waste to the instructor pilots and the simulator instructors and the academic instructors that we at [Air Education and Training Command] in coordination with us [at Eglin] and Luke made a call almost a year ago to stop using the program,” Moga said during a Feb. 26 interview."

" F-35A training squadrons have adopted a legacy system, Northrop Grumman’s Global Training Integrated Management System. GTIMS is used by the Air Force, Army and Navy across a number of aircraft inventories to manage training schedules and cut the man-hours and costs associated with doing that work"

"At the Air Force Association’s Air Warfare Symposium held last week, Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson turned it into a punchline, jokingly saying: “I can guarantee that no Air Force maintainer will ever name their daughter ‘Alice. ”

"ALIS, Wilson said, was “a proprietary system so frustrating to use, maintainers said they were wasting 10-15 hours a week fighting with it … and looking for ways to bypass it to try to make F-35s mission-capable.”

"It’s unclear whether any of the other U.S. services have followed the Air Force’s decision to abandon ALIS’ training management system."

Full story

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/03 ... or-pilots/

topman
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby topman » 09 Mar 2019, 16:29

I bet ALIS seemed such a good idea, to those that know nothing about how aircraft operate, all those years ago.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 09 Mar 2019, 16:39

I wonder how the joint Norway-Italy effort on having mission files separated ('sovereignty') from the logs/ maintenance files is going?

SW1
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby SW1 » 09 Mar 2019, 16:40

A glimpse at f35 mro considerations, much like experiencance with uniqueness of 787 in the civil world so it is for defence with f35

https://www.mro-network.com/maintenance ... 8bcc40bc30

topman
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby topman » 09 Mar 2019, 16:56

That sounds like a complete money spinner for years to come.

That'll be fun adding all that in for dets, I wonder how many big dets bar RF are ready for F35?

Anyone who still thinks we're operating ours out of 'austere' conditions because it can take off on a short runway only needs to read that article to see what a none starter the idea is.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby SW1 » 09 Mar 2019, 17:04

topman wrote:That sounds like a complete money spinner for years to come.

That'll be fun adding all that in for dets, I wonder how many big dets bar RF are ready for F35?

Anyone who still thinks we're operating ours out of 'austere' conditions because it can take off on a short runway only needs to read that article to see what a none starter the idea is.


Electrical demands of this a/c onboard and off board have been an ongoing issue in various ways particularly there underestimation in certain conditions for about 12 years now.

topman
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby topman » 09 Mar 2019, 17:17

Do tell ;)

Actually that reminds me of meeting with the PT, some interesting choice with regards 'all electric' even in areas we've traditional relied on mechanical means because of reliability.

We'll be walking before we run for sure, I don't about any deployments etc but I'd bet my pension they'll be plenty of senior officers who'll be 'can we' or 'are you sure we really need...'

Always fun times...

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 09 Mar 2019, 21:07

SW1 wrote:Electrical demands of this a/c

Well. how can the new engine -whether it will be wrapped into Block 4 steps or not- still be an open question
- as it is supposed to be the answer (and deliver many other 'goodies' too)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby SW1 » 10 Mar 2019, 10:06

topman wrote:Do tell ;)

Actually that reminds me of meeting with the PT, some interesting choice with regards 'all electric' even in areas we've traditional relied on mechanical means because of reliability.

We'll be walking before we run for sure, I don't about any deployments etc but I'd bet my pension they'll be plenty of senior officers who'll be 'can we' or 'are you sure we really need...'

Always fun times...


Mainly around load margin or lack there off! Yeah from different electrical load and feeds in ECS, EPU, APU and electro hydraulic actuators there will likely be a few firsts for the airforce in there. Most have been done with maintenance and specifically weight in mind and starting to come in across aviation now. Most of this was happening around the 00s when structures and piping of all sorts were getting binned or changed due to the great diet anything that may have added some weight back by going to a more legacy solution would be like a fart in a space suit. In theory with electrical systems you don’t need to get into them as much but there’s less flexibility in rigging of control surfaces for example. Also there’s a wish to limit and move away from aeroshell and skydrol type products. What’s being proposed for 2024 is what should of happened in 2006.

Lord Jim
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 11 Mar 2019, 00:14

I really cannot see us ever using our F-35s in any way the appears to be a reinvention of the Harrier Force. They will either be operating from nice big, smooth runways at a all mod cons airfield or off on of the Carriers. IF there were an operation like Afghanistan the Typhoons would be sent.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby seaspear » 11 Mar 2019, 01:07

There was a recent article about wargaming from the U.S apologies for not providing it but showed in the event of hostilities in Europe although the f35 may win in the air being destroyed on the airield ,this may be an argument for the R.A.A.F to stick with the F35B which can be deployed/dispersed as the Harrier was using civilian roads

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby R686 » 11 Mar 2019, 04:10

seaspear wrote:There was a recent article about wargaming from the U.S apologies for not providing it but showed in the event of hostilities in Europe although the f35 may win in the air being destroyed on the airield ,this may be an argument for the R.A.A.F to stick with the F35B which can be deployed/dispersed as the Harrier was using civilian roads



So far the RAAF are not buying any F35B, and can see in the future that RAAF would willingly go down that route, As the inevitable question will turn to the carriers

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 11 Mar 2019, 08:18

seaspear wrote:although the f35 may win in the air being destroyed on the airield ,this may be an argument for the R.A.A.F to stick with the F35B which can be deployed/dispersed as the Harrier was using civilian roads

There have been quotes re: Israel also considering B's for better dispersal
- in the past, massive naval powers like Switzerland and Finland have gone for Hornets as their carrier operation focus also (to a degree) supports dispersed ops. Not for permanent basing, but as for protection against first-day strikes and (quick) turn-arounds in the later stages

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby NickC » 11 Mar 2019, 17:01

March - US air force mag reporting Vice Adm. Winter, F-35 Program Executive Officer, December interview, current position, don't think anything new.

The F-35 is expected to complete initial operational test and evaluation late this year, certifying the Block 3F version is fully combat-ready.

Block 4 comprises some 53 improvements to counter both air- and ground-based threats emerging from China and Russia [The Block 4 update program will allow the aircraft to finally meet its full contractual specifications]

TR3 makes the Block 4 improvements possible [planned for Lot 15 a/c due for delivery 2023.] Most existing [actual wish if funding available?] F-35s are getting the Technology Refresh 3 package. Known as TR3, Winter said it includes “updated cockpit displays, updated memory system capacity, and updated core processing and computer power.” 

The first Block 4 update is planned for April 2019 // with updates every April and October starting in 2019 and continuing through at least 2024 // The Block 4 updates identified thus far have a completion point in the mid-2020s

Block 4 upgrades will be “80 percent” software [Continuous Capability Development and Deliver,C2D2, plan classed as high risk by Pentagon DOT&E]

The specific content of the Block 4 upgrade remains closely held, but breaks down broadly into six categories: 
• Integration of seven new weapons, including the Small Diameter Bomb II, British weapons such as the ASRAAM [CSM version?] and Meteor air-to-air missiles; Turkey’s Standoff Missile and Norway’s Joint Strike Missile; [does not explicitly mention SPEAR 3]
• Eight logistics and support changes;
• 13 electronic warfare updates;
• Seven interoperability and networking changes;
• Seven cockpit and navigation upgrades; and
• 11 radar and electro-optical system enhancements.

Block 4 also adds a fifth basic mission, Winter said: “extended surface warfare.” Upgrades will enhance radar “for maritime surveillance, identification and targeting,” he explained, “because ‘maritime surface’ and ‘land surface’ are two different problems.” Search patterns on the open ocean will be improved, as will “being able to sense the order of battle in the maritime world.” [inclusion of Synthetic Aperture mode in updated radar as art of TR3?]

Although the F-35 can carry the new Long-Range Anti-Ship Missile, or LRASM, externally, Winter said the principal new anti-ship missiles coming in Block 4 are the JSOW C1 for the Navy and the Norwegian JSM. The program has “not been asked” about whether the stealthy LRASM can fit inside the F-35’s weapon bays, he said, nor has the Navy asked to integrate the SLAM-ER (Standoff Land Attack Missile-Extended Range) version of the Harpoon anti-ship missile. 

Problems highlighted
ALIS, now known will be subject to a software re-write, [Lockheed to team with MIT, MITRE and SPAWAR to re-architect ALIS]
Mission Data Files " However, it still takes eight months to compile an MDF “because we’re using engineering/manufacturing tool suites that were used to just determine how to do this.”
Sustainment/operational costs remain too high, the Air Force has a goal to reduce F-35 sustainment costs by 38 percent “we are trying to pull that to the left” and accomplish it sooner than predicted.
Mission capable rates to at least 80 percent [from current 40%?]

From <http://airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2019/March%202019/Keeping-the-F-35-Ahead-of-the-Bad-Guys.aspx>
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 11 Mar 2019, 19:02

NickC wrote:The specific content of the Block 4 upgrade remains closely held, but breaks down broadly into six categories: 
• Integration of seven new weapons, including the Small Diameter Bomb II, British weapons such as the ASRAAM [CSM version?] and Meteor air-to-air missiles; Turkey’s Standoff Missile and Norway’s Joint Strike Missile; [does not explicitly mention SPEAR 3]


Asraam CSP. Spear will definitely be on the list for the UK. It was one of the reasons why Brimstone was dropped earlier on. It's a critical UK capability, arguably more so than Asraam CSP.

You do have to wonder whether the SOM-J will go ahead though.....a lot hinges on whether Turkey are still in at that point. At the moment I'd guess not. Although as Lockheed are involved it may still go ahead, I can't imagine any F-35 operator actually buying a Turkish weapon though. Which could be good news for someone trying to integrate another weapon. The recently announced JSOW-ER perhaps.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 12 Mar 2019, 02:33

NickC wrote:Search patterns on the open ocean will be improved

Norway & Japan (more so than the US?)
NickC wrote:the Navy [has not] asked to integrate the SLAM-ER (Standoff Land Attack Missile-Extended Range) version of the Harpoon anti-ship missile.
As for our Harpoon compatibility, this is quite different from what we have for surface launch and has not been ordered (? yet?) for our P-8s
- only the Indian version has a more basic Harpoon
NickC wrote: [Lockheed to team with MIT, MITRE and SPAWAR to re-architect ALIS]
This is official speak. The less official reports say that there is a further company "to prgrm manage" the effort and that LM is no longer the "lead".
Timmymagic wrote:Spear will definitely be on the list for the UK.

Yes, contractual. I guess that's why there is the "some" header, rather than a full list of seven

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 12 Mar 2019, 03:54

With ALIS the US seems to be having very similar issues that we had with LITS a decade or so back. It was supposed to reduce operating costs and the level of spares required to support the front line by passing engineering data back down the chain as well as logistic information in a joined up manner. This would enable the right spares t be at the unit when they were needed and for engineering issues to be spotted and dealt with before they became real problems. Never works like that and only the engineering side was ever really rolled out.

As for SPEAR and the F-35 how far again are we away from this system entering service? have any actually been built yet let alone undergone testing. Not integrating Brimstone is a grave mistake and a false economy and it should have been done before Paveway IV as it is a far more flexible weapon especially in its latest form. Isn't SPEAR 3 based on the Brimstone anyway? Surely this would have reduced the eventual integration costs for the former anyway if it uses basically the same airframe as the latter.

With the AShM issue, this could be a long wait for both the RAF and RN, even though it has been announced that a stop gap system could be ordered. We should leave the Angle/French programme and choose one of the multitude a current systems either in service with our allies or that soon will be. Adopting the NSM for both services would be a good choice even though it cannot be carried internally by the "B" variant of the F-35. Another good option would be the latest all singing and dancing version of the RBS-15, which like the NSM is aimed at littoral warfare but will perform just as well out in the big blue.

These are the sort of things the Transformation fund should be looking at, filling existing capability gaps rather than inventing new ones like the FLSS.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 12 Mar 2019, 18:51

More confirmation that nothing's been confirmed.....

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?i ... .h&p=25658


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