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F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.

How do you feel about the F-35B for the RN and RAF? (2 votes per member)

GOOD choice for the Royal Navy
114
45%
BAD choice for the Royal Navy
9
4%
Uncertain (RN)
11
4%
GOOD choice for the Royal Air Force
45
18%
BAD choice for the Royal Air Force
35
14%
Uncertain (RAF)
37
15%
 
Total votes: 251

Little J
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Little J » 24 Nov 2018, 19:10

First time I've heard that... I have heard that it's more draggy though.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 26 Nov 2018, 12:32

I suspect this will mean the UK/Japan JNAAM will definitely go ahead....

The Izumo Class look to be fairly straightforward conversions to STOVL. A buy of 40 would indicate that's all they've got planned for present.

Could be a very good opportunity for increased UK/Japan ties. Although the USMC would also be involved in getting the Japanese back in the carrier game (who thought we'd ever say that...) they'd probably look to the UK for STOVL/ski jump advice.


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SKB
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby SKB » 26 Nov 2018, 13:22

Izumo at 248m long is 32m shorter than QE and will need a ramp.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 26 Nov 2018, 13:36

SKB wrote:Izumo at 248m long is 32m shorter than QE and will need a ramp.


It will, there was a cgi mockup of it somewhere. A bolt on job like the QE's, it fitted so well it was almost as if they'd designed it that way...

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Pongoglo » 26 Nov 2018, 16:23

Timmymagic wrote:
SKB wrote:Izumo at 248m long is 32m shorter than QE and will need a ramp.


It will, there was a cgi mockup of it somewhere. A bolt on job like the QE's, it fitted so well it was almost as if they'd designed it that way...


Is QE's 'bolt on' ? If so means we could take it off without too much fuss. A good bit of kit and effective I concede but from certain angles like broadside on IMHO its ugly as sin, she would look so much prettier without! The USMC seem to manage fine with no ski jump and with much smaller ships too. If we took it off it would give us some extra helo spots in the LPH role or even catapults for UAV's :-) Heresy on here I know!

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby SKB » 26 Nov 2018, 16:37

Pongoglo wrote:Is QE's (ramp) 'bolt on' ?

QE's ramp is not a single bolt-on structure. The ramp was fitted in several large sections to the bare metal flight deck surface during assembly and construction. Taking the ramp off would leave a 250 ft long bare metal "pothole" in QE's surface which would require resurfacing and heat proofing. It could be done, but it wouldn't be a quick process.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby downsizer » 26 Nov 2018, 17:02

SKB wrote:Izumo at 248m long is 32m shorter than QE and will need a ramp.


Need a ramp? Need?

Not sure sure about that, the Essex is 257 and has no ramp.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 26 Nov 2018, 17:41

Not just a ramp, but blast shields too
- in 2026 f-35b's will have 25% more thrust
- will anything (other than a/c) go 'flying' on our decks :o

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby sunstersun » 26 Nov 2018, 20:06

UK is the only partner that gets royalties for every FMS purchase.

On top of the fact that the a greater portion of the F-35B is produced by the UK.

nice

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby seaspear » 26 Nov 2018, 20:26

Would blast shields of been practical for the Q.E.C or contributed?

SW1
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby SW1 » 26 Nov 2018, 21:15

F35bs has a 600ft takeoff roll without ski jump or 450ft with can be less depending on stores/fuel so the Japanese ship should be capable of either.

Don’t see the need for a blast shield, stovl takeoff is dry thrust only with the rear nozzle depressed.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby dmereifield » 26 Nov 2018, 22:20

So are we expecting to see Japanese F35s flying off QE's deck in the 2020's? Would be great if so, when she deploys in the far East.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby R686 » 26 Nov 2018, 23:39

sunstersun wrote:UK is the only partner that gets royalties for every FMS purchase.

On top of the fact that the a greater portion of the F-35B is produced by the UK.

nice


What royalties?

All FMS is that the items are actually ordered by the US DOD and generally making use of economies of scale available to the US.

I suspect the royalties you refer to are the parts made for the aircraft across the consortisim so therefore all nations across the build process wins as these are additional orders.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby sunstersun » 27 Nov 2018, 02:44

R686 wrote:
sunstersun wrote:UK is the only partner that gets royalties for every FMS purchase.

On top of the fact that the a greater portion of the F-35B is produced by the UK.

nice


What royalties?

All FMS is that the items are actually ordered by the US DOD and generally making use of economies of scale available to the US.

I suspect the royalties you refer to are the parts made for the aircraft across the consortisim so therefore all nations across the build process wins as these are additional orders.

Nope, no other nation gets royalties.

Being a tier one partner, the UK gets royalties (dunno how much) for every FMS sale.

https://www.aerosociety.com/news/uk-f-3 ... ch-to-qec/

"Additionally, because the UK invested early in the programme as a Tier 1 partner, it also receives royalties for every FMS F-35 sold (eg Israel and South Korea). "

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby R686 » 27 Nov 2018, 04:40

sunstersun wrote:
R686 wrote:
sunstersun wrote:UK is the only partner that gets royalties for every FMS purchase.

On top of the fact that the a greater portion of the F-35B is produced by the UK.

nice


What royalties?

All FMS is that the items are actually ordered by the US DOD and generally making use of economies of scale available to the US.

I suspect the royalties you refer to are the parts made for the aircraft across the consortisim so therefore all nations across the build process wins as these are additional orders.

Nope, no other nation gets royalties.

Being a tier one partner, the UK gets royalties (dunno how much) for every FMS sale.



Have you got a source for that?

Every single source I’ve come across makes no mention of royalties, but does go to show the level of input into the program as an example,being a their one partner also did not commit you to actually buying the aircraft. Just you level of development but if you have a source I’d be very interested in reading that.

Following the signing of the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) and the JSF Framework MOU with associated supplements, each partner signed as a tier one, two, or three partner. Partnership tiering, defined by the level of financial commitment each country makes to the system development and demonstration phase, comes with commensurate benefits. The UK, as a tier I partner, will be the first to pick its delivery schedule. Additionally, tiers define the level of insight into the design and development process. For example, for $2B, the UK is allowed 30 cooperative program personnel during the system development and demonstration phase of the program. As a tier II partner, the Italians, however, are only allowed 10 representatives in the program office andhave little influence on the capabilities except for their identified capability gaps in their ‘delta’ System Development and Demonstration version of the aircraft10 (see Table 1). The international representatives are dual-hatted, working for the US program director and their respective MoDs. They attend program reviews but are not allowed access to non- disclosure related content as defined by the National Disclosure Policy. Partner tiers also do not determine the level of industrial participation. Work share is defined as the percentage of industrial participation each partner secures. It is the holy grail of international cooperative programs and, by far, its most acrimonious component.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby sunstersun » 27 Nov 2018, 04:52

R686 wrote:
Have you got a source for that?

Every single source I’ve come across makes no mention of royalties, but does go to show the level of input into the program as an example,being a their one partner also did not commit you to actually buying the aircraft. Just you level of development but if you have a source I’d be very interested in reading that.



see edit.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby R686 » 27 Nov 2018, 05:48

sunstersun wrote:see edit.


Thanks, not doubting you but would really like to see that in black and white in from an offical source

A couple I used

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a514284.pdf

ANALYZING THE MULTI-NATIONAL COOPERATIVE ACQUISITION ASPECT OF THE JOINT STRIKE FIGHTER (JSF) PROGRAM



http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/cst/csat55.pdf

International Arament Cooperative Programs: Benefits, Liabilities, and Self-Inflicted Wounds – The JSF As A Case Study

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 27 Nov 2018, 07:12

R686 wrote:The UK, as a tier I partner, will be the first to pick its delivery schedule. Additionally, tiers define the level of insight into the design and development process. For example, for $2B, the UK is allowed 30 cooperative program personnel


Although the input into weapons integration seems to have run out of 'influence' regardless how many 'heads' you have on the prgrm, the third element is (rather than royalties) that Tier I (i.e. the one and only) is exempt from paying FMS fees
- e.g. Canada, I think, is 'on the hook' for them regardless of what they decide to buy in the end

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby sunstersun » 27 Nov 2018, 07:24

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Intern ... rs-from-US

Hurray for Japan!

although this does put their domestic jet program into question.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby sunstersun » 27 Nov 2018, 07:27

R686 wrote:
sunstersun wrote:see edit.


Thanks, not doubting you but would really like to see that in black and white in from an offical source

A couple I used

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a514284.pdf

ANALYZING THE MULTI-NATIONAL COOPERATIVE ACQUISITION ASPECT OF THE JOINT STRIKE FIGHTER (JSF) PROGRAM



http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/cst/csat55.pdf

International Arament Cooperative Programs: Benefits, Liabilities, and Self-Inflicted Wounds – The JSF As A Case Study


There's no way I can sim through official sources rn, but...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Aer ... al_Society

Seems plenty credible to me as a source.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby dmereifield » 27 Nov 2018, 07:35

sunstersun wrote:https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-Relations/Japan-to-order-100-more-F-35-fighters-from-US

Hurray for Japan!

although this does put their domestic jet program into question.


Blimey, an additional order of 100 on top of their prior planed purchase of 40. I wonder how many will be the B variant.

If this all goes through they will have the largest F35 fleet other than the US.

Good news for UK plc and for interoperability between Japanese and UK carriers. It will be great to see our F35s on their carriers and vice versa

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 28 Nov 2018, 21:25

dmereifield wrote:Blimey, an additional order of 100 on top of their prior planed purchase of 40. I wonder how many will be the B variant.


100 F-35A
40 F-35B
Apparently..

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 28 Nov 2018, 21:26


Little J
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Little J » 29 Nov 2018, 11:12

:thumbup:

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 01 Dec 2018, 01:00

Jeez (no, not him, the modern day one):

Joint-ness reigns supreme?
https://news.sky.com/story/royal-navy-f ... s-11568074


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