F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

[NickC]

A few quotes from Defence News

the signing of a £550 million (U.S. $750 million) production contract by the Ministry of Defence and contractor MBDA, the company announced Jan. 6.

guided firings of the weapon from a Typhoon in support of the Spear 3 development for the F-35B will start within 18 months // Spear 3 missile achieve initial operation capability on the aircraft in 2025

range in excess of 140 kilometers [~75 nm] is destined to be fitted solely to the F-35B models // a possibility Spear 3 might also eventually be installed on the Royal Air Force’s fleet of Eurofighter Typhoon fighters. // The F-35B can carry up to eight Spear 3 missiles in its internal weapons bay and further missiles on the wing.

The new demonstration and production contract announced today follows the successful implementation of the £150 million weapon development contract placed in 2016 and a £411 million deal in 2019 for integrating Spear 3 onto the F-35

What did surprise me if the figures correct was the high cost of integrating Spear 3 with the F-35B at £411 million.

The future holds out the possibility for Tempest to bring costs down as with Saab software installed on the new Gripen E. Saab Distributed Integrated Modular Avionics (DIMA) separating the flight-critical functions (FCF) from the mission systems, understanding aim to change software so as a customer can add new functionality through apps, similarly to a mobile phone and so hopefully bring weapons integration costs back to some level of reasonableness.

From <https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... eir-f-35s/>

[ArmChairCivvy]

The F-35B can carry up to eight Spear 3 missiles in its internal weapons bay and further missiles on the wing.

We'll finally have the stealth bomber (with anything more than free-fall bombs); capable of self-defence (ASRAAMs on wing tips)
... in the early days was described as the first-day-of-war weapon; but did not come with anything to even suppress IADS , on the way to target

[Timmymagic]

What did surprise me if the figures correct was the high cost of integrating Spear 3 with the F-35B at £411 million.

That was the design and development costs for Spear, not integration.

[NickC]

What did surprise me if the figures correct was the high cost of integrating Spear 3 with the F-35B at £411 million.

That was the design and development costs for Spear, not integration.

Thanks for your clarification.

[Timmymagic]

Thanks for your clarification.

You'll struggle to get a cost for integration as there is money being spent with MBDA direct (see below). These will relate to changes to the missile to make them fit and some integration.

https://defense-update.com/20170421_f35_meteor.html

And then there are contracts awarded via Lockheed to BAE, MBDA and Raytheon for integration works on UK weapons. Obviously these are then re-billed to the UK but getting clarity on the breakdown is not going to happen.

Interestingly, the latest LM contract mentioned further integration work being done on Paveway IV and Asraam (legacy Asraam not CSP), in addition to Meteor and Spear, which indicates that both PWIV and Asraam were integrated for the UK IOC but perhaps did not have their full capabilities/performace available.

[ArmChairCivvy]

indicates that both PWIV and Asraam were integrated for the UK IOC but perhaps did not have their full capabilities/performace available.

Tick box
... may be not so much our MoD (nor LM) but to satisfy US Congress oversight?

[BlueD954]

The F-35B can carry up to eight Spear 3 missiles in its internal weapons bay and further missiles on the wing.

We'll finally have the stealth bomber (with anything more than free-fall bombs); capable of self-defence (ASRAAMs on wing tips)
... in the early days was described as the first-day-of-war weapon; but did not come with anything to even suppress IADS , on the way to target

I think Paveway IV (the newer mods) isnn't exactly free-fall.

Isn't F-35B slated to carry Meteor?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Isn't F-35B slated to carry Meteor?

Is it
Instead of the six, internal carry AMRAAM
... wonder why the US wouldn't buy the 'clipped wing' version for theirs? As China has their own 'Meteor'

[BlueD954]

Isn't F-35B slated to carry Meteor?

Is it
Instead of the six, internal carry AMRAAM
... wonder why the US wouldn't buy the 'clipped wing' version for theirs? As China has their own 'Meteor'

I believe it is. US will arm with AIM-12OD.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/1 ... r-missiles

Not sure the F-35B can have a beast mode. Still, anything is possible.

[BlueD954]

Isn't F-35B slated to carry Meteor?

Is it
Instead of the six, internal carry AMRAAM
... wonder why the US wouldn't buy the 'clipped wing' version for theirs? As China has their own 'Meteor'

https://www.mbda-systems.com/2019/03/18 ... -35-fleet/

If you can show me another source saying the UK wont equip its F-35Bs with Meteor?

[BlueD954]

For now UK F-35Bs may likely use AIM-120C or D.

https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major- ... ile-amraam

[NickC]

My limited understanding is that only the future new variants of F-35B Block 4 a/c will have the capability to use the ASRAAM CSM, Meteor and Spear 3.

Block 4 including its new computers and software is $12 billion 2018-2026 development programme with its various iterations, did see mention that the UK would not be funding the estimated cost of $27 million per a/c for partial upgrade to Block 4 standard for all pre Block 4 a/c, first Block 4 a/c build lot 15 in 2023 and later. The year which the Block 4 a/c have capability to use UK missiles will leave to others with up to date knowledge.

[seaspear]

This is an earlier article on Spear 11 and Spear e.w working in tandem
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... -huge-deal
interesting if used by helicopters forces

[ArmChairCivvy]

A good article.

I am glad we stuck with the prgrm that almost fell to our cheese-paring & salami-slicing defence budgeting (buying the cheaper, OTS alternative instead):
"overall the two weapons are similar in many respects, but SPEAR-3 has nearly double the range and can reach its targets faster than the unpowered Stormbreaker glide bomb. "

[ArmChairCivvy]

Moving slightly away from F-35 (after all, only 4 Spears to be carried) the linked articles (from the one for which the URL is above), the two others outline how to produce volume of fires (while keeping targeting both intelligent & dynamic).
- the USAF has noticed that the Grey Wolves (German subs) are on our side these days, and changed the prgrm name to Golden Horde (that kept the Ruskies at bay, until 1400, take away four years to be more exact)

[BlueD954]

My limited understanding is that only the future new variants of F-35B Block 4 a/c will have the capability to use the ASRAAM CSM, Meteor and Spear 3.

Block 4 including its new computers and software is $12 billion 2018-2026 development programme with its various iterations, did see mention that the UK would not be funding the estimated cost of $27 million per a/c for partial upgrade to Block 4 standard for all pre Block 4 a/c, first Block 4 a/c build lot 15 in 2023 and later. The year which the Block 4 a/c have capability to use UK missiles will leave to others with up to date knowledge.

What is CSM?

[Timmymagic]

interesting if used by helicopters forces

Spear would need alteration to be used by helicopters. It would need a booster rocket to bring it to a speed where the jet could function.
This is also the reason why Kongsberg proposes the NSM not the JSM for helicopter use.

[Timmymagic]

What is CSM?

He means CSP (Capability Sustainment Programme). Essentially its ASRAAM Mk.2. New seeker head and other improvements ported over from CAMM. Totally new production to replace the UK's stocks of legacy ASRAAM.

[ArmChairCivvy]

interesting if used by helicopters forces

Spear would need alteration to be used by helicopters. It would need a booster rocket to bring it to a speed where the jet could function.
This is also the reason why Kongsberg proposes the NSM not the JSM for helicopter use.

If I got the gist, the idea was that a Chinook could act as a command center for a wide area, perhaps Apaches be 'forward' sensors, but most of the missile/bomb slinging to be done by UAVs (in the US Army case the Grey Eagle?) from a 'safe' distance.
- this would replicate the 'Normandy' scenario, where it would be difficult for the OpFor to leave their SAM cover, for quick and decisive manoeuvres... without being picked up by stand-off weapons. And as opposed to the old days, night cover for movement in no cover, anymore.

Here come back to the limited carry of Spears by the F-35. They could spearhead the attack on those nodes by taking out IADS and then Typhoons, carrying multiples of 'triplets' could deal with the other targets... or call the USAF for some of their Strike Eagles to bring 20 (each ) to the party

[BlueD954]

interesting if used by helicopters forces

Spear would need alteration to be used by helicopters. It would need a booster rocket to bring it to a speed where the jet could function.
This is also the reason why Kongsberg proposes the NSM not the JSM for helicopter use.

If I got the gist, the idea was that a Chinook could act as a command center for a wide area, perhaps Apaches be 'forward' sensors, but most of the missile/bomb slinging to be done by UAVs (in the US Army case the Grey Eagle?) from a 'safe' distance.
- this would replicate the 'Normandy' scenario, where it would be difficult for the OpFor to leave their SAM cover, for quick and decisive manoeuvres... without being picked up by stand-off weapons. And as opposed to the old days, night cover for movement in no cover, anymore.

Here come back to the limited carry of Spears by the F-35. They could spearhead the attack on those nodes by taking out IADS and then Typhoons, carrying multiples of 'triplets' could deal with the other targets... or call the USAF for some of their Strike Eagles to bring 20 (each ) to the party

SPEAR 2

[SW1]

Army case the Grey Eagle?) from a 'safe' distance.
- this would replicate the 'Normandy' scenario, where it would be difficult for the OpFor to leave their SAM cover, for quick and decisive manoeuvres... without being picked up by stand-off weapons. And as opposed to the old days, night cover for movement in no cover, anymore.

Which kind of takes us full circle in that for a peer enemy they have a defensive posture that we don’t want to go into and we are now developing a similar posture so they don’t want to come into ours and as such a Cold War stand off ensues with guerrilla actions around the edges. ultimately this leads to the question if an airforce doesn’t have the nuclear strike role what are you wanting to risk them to attack in such a enemy’s backyard that can’t be done with long range precision standoff weapons.

[Ron5]

Here come back to the limited carry of Spears by the F-35.

They will carry 8 Spear 3's plus 2 Meteors internally plus more Spear 3's on underwing pylons if required.

[Ron5]

Army case the Grey Eagle?) from a 'safe' distance.
- this would replicate the 'Normandy' scenario, where it would be difficult for the OpFor to leave their SAM cover, for quick and decisive manoeuvres... without being picked up by stand-off weapons. And as opposed to the old days, night cover for movement in no cover, anymore.

Which kind of takes us full circle in that for a peer enemy they have a defensive posture that we don’t want to go into and we are now developing a similar posture so they don’t want to come into ours and as such a Cold War stand off ensues with guerrilla actions around the edges. ultimately this leads to the question if an airforce doesn’t have the nuclear strike role what are you wanting to risk them to attack in such a enemy’s backyard that can’t be done with long range precision standoff weapons.

One answer: targets which you do not know about, or have sufficient targeting information on, that threaten you.

[NickC]

Block 4 F-35Bs with capability of carrying ASRAAM CSM, Meteor and Spear 3, only 13 a/c?

My understanding of UK contracts and future buy at current time
LRIP - Number
lot
3 ---- 2
4 ---- 1
7 ---- 1
8 ---- 4
9 ---- 6
10 ---- 3
11 ---- 2
12 ---- 2
13 ---- 6
14 ---- 8
15 ---- 7
16 ---- 6
Total -- 48

Understand 21 delivered, 18 in UK, last three arrived in December and think the first 2 will stay in US as were in effect prototypes? So it would appear 46 deliverable and only the 13 a/c of lots 15 & 16 will be Block 4, if as hinted previous a/c will not be upgraded.

If partial upgrade funding were forthcoming presuming upgrade cost would depend on the various build states and maybe some of the earlier pre build lot 15 build lots would be excluded on technical grounds and cost.

[Timmymagic]

They will carry 8 Spear 3's plus 2 Meteors internally plus more Spear 3's on underwing pylons if required.

Truth is we don't know. Nothing has ever been said about external carriage of Spear.

I think a lot will depend on if the US decides to attach BRU-61's on the inner and mid pylons for SDB1, SDB2 and perhaps (in the future) JAGM and or Goldern Horde thingies...If the US goes down that route the UK may follow. At the moment the only store we appear to have planned that will be cleared there is Paveway IV. We'll probably see external tanks at some point for the inner wing pylon. But wing mounting doesn't seem to be high on anyones priority list at present, it looks like the 'Sidekick' device will be ahead of any external AMRAAM carriage as well.