F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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seaspear
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by seaspear »

Continuing a discussion from the aircraft carrier thread that went into the F35 b or a Storm shadow has a 1000 lb warhead the a version of the f35b can carry internally a two thousand pound bomb stealthily

Scimitar54
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Sounds a bit like you have been on the Woolarbra Wonga Mate!

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SKB
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Exercise Point Blank

(Forces TV) 29 Nov 2018
Two of the RAF's F-35B Lightning stealth fighter jets have taken to the skies over the North Sea as part of Exercise Point Blank. Aircraft from the British, US and French Air Forces all scrambled together to practise what has been described as part of an "insurance policy" against global threats. The exact details of the scenario are classified but some of the aircraft were playing the enemy whilst the rest were trying to defeat them...

CameronPerson
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by CameronPerson »

Ron5 wrote:There's been chatter about the appointments of the next heads of the RAF & RN. Surprising choices as more senior names were overlooked and explained by saying Williamson wants younger guys with transformational mindsets.

Just a passing thought but what if "transformational mindsets" is code for guys that don't participate in inter-service warfare of the kind sparked recently by various RAF types musing out loud that the RAF would be better off with F-35A's.

If I remember correctly, one of those doing the musing is also one of those that has been passed over.
Interestingly enough it was picked up by Jonathan Beale at the BBC that not only were they younger but they were all very much veteran “Whitehall Warriors” already at this stage in their career. As you say, maybe also evidence of an attempt to try and kirb those inter-service rivalries at the most senior levels

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Yesterday after more than 18 years in R&D the Pentagon F-35 Program Executive Officer Adm. Winter announced at long last they had 23 aircraft of suitable hardware/software standard (3F version 30R02) to officially start Initial Operational Test and Evaluation Phase, about 16 months later than the program predicted it would in the revised 2012 schedule.

Once IOT&E is finished in late 2019 or early 2020, expects the award of Milestone C, authorisation for full rate production decision.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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NickC wrote: at long last they had 23 aircraft of suitable hardware/software standard (3F version 30R02) to officially start Initial Operational Test and Evaluation Phase
[for the eventual] award of Milestone C, authorisation for full rate production decision.
I have been upsetting a lot techno-infantalists around Europe by trying to make them acknowledge this as a fact, and some of the accelerated IOC gymnastics as the necessary evil to get to the next stage... so that in the end there will be a product that is near to the spec that it was ordered with.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Caribbean »

The red tops are at it again

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ected.html
Hi-tech coating which makes RAF's new £100million F-35 fighter jets 'invisible' to enemy radar is wearing off more quickly than expected
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Little J
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Little J »

Sunday Express had same article... Some times I think they share reporters :roll:

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Little J wrote:share reporters
Would be a good idea as 'defence' is a complex topic, and drawing on a pool (more broadly) might raise the standard.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

I think it is more like they "Draw straws", in the office to see who is that day's defence editor.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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The importance of the small print - mission capable/fully mission capable?

What does ‘mission capable’ mean, it does not mean the aircraft can do all the missions that are assigned to it, that means “Fully Mission Capable”.

US Defense Secretary James Mattis ordered the military to raise fighter aircraft availability to 80 percent by the end of 2019 for the F-35, F-22, F-16 and F-18 inventories

DOD GAO Pendleton stated last year the F-35 typically had a 15 percent Fully Mission Capable rate, it took months, sometimes six months or more to get parts repaired and back out to the fleet.

F-35 JPO replied “The F-35 program office said in a statement that the aircraft’s reliability across all three variants “continues to improve and newer production aircraft are averaging greater than 60 percent mission capable rates with many operational squadrons consistently at or above 70 percent. In partnership with our customers, we’re taking aggressive actions to achieve the shared goal of 80 percent mission capable rates.”

Just this Thursday, USAF announced that with the F-35 JPO and Lockheed they are working to apply agile software development techniques used by the Kessel Run Experimentation Lab Boston to the troubled F-35 Autonomic Logistics Information System, ALIS.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2018/12 ... ters-world

My guess would be that it is the "A" that will bear the brunt
... and Italy will show renewed interest in Typhoon upgrades

Part of the F-35 order has been justified by the need to retire subsonic mud-movers; will it now be spelt out what kind of numbers that part translates to?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Scimitar54
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Only 1 day left for the MOD/RAF to declare UK Initial Operating Capability (Land) for the F35B! Or perhaps they will wait until the New Year and claim it retrospectively. :mrgreen:

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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27-12-2018 LM awarded $712M for development of TR3, Technology Refresh 3 modernisation programme, to replace the old tech in F-35, new computer, panoramic cockpit display electronic unit, aircraft memory system plus new distributed aperture system. Plan is to build into Lot 15 aircraft, expected to begin deliveries in 2023.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Maritime Strike Capability

Vice Adm. Mat Winter head of the F-35 Joint Project Office , JPO, talking to US airforcemag in December stated that Block 4 will add a fifth “mission thread” to the four missions it already performs—that of “expanded surface warfare”. The four core missions in the F-35 baseline version are: air superiority, suppression and destruction of enemy air defenses, close air support, and strategic attack of key targets.

"The Block 3F version can do limited strikes against ships, but Winter explained the radar and other sensor functions needed to attack land targets are different for attack of sea targets. The update in Block IV will allow the F-35 to be effective in the sea strike role as well, he said."

"The Navy/Air Force Long-Range Anti-Ship Missile (LRASM), a variant of the AGM-158 JASSM-ER, is not a fundamental element of the new mission capability, Winter said. Although the F-35 has had fit checks of LRASM externally and can probably carry the weapon internally, the Navy’s threshold munition for the mission is the AGM-154 Joint Stand-Off Weapon, or JSOW, he said, noting that LRASM may be added later."

My first thoughts
Until Block 4 aircraft in service the Mach 1.6 F-35B will have limited mission capabilities, especially in the maritime strike role. Block 4 will bring 53 additional capabilities, JPO previously said about 22 of the capabilities, not revealed, will require the F-35 to include the Technology Refresh 3, TR3 upgrade, planned for Lot 15 a/c due for delivery 2023. (TR3 new computer with 25x power, panoramic cockpit display electronic unit, aircraft memory system and new DAS (as yet no mention if the new generation silicon tech IR in an Advanced EOTS to be included, the new tech in current upgrades to the F-15 & F-18 and the new Litening, Sniper and Talios pods, "the radar and other sensor functions needed to attack land targets are different for attack of sea targets" presumably the inclusion of SAR capability in the radar slipped from Block 3.6F).

If the RN want to equip the F-35B with an AShM with powerful warhead for the Maritime Strike role the 1,100kg/450kg warhead LM Long-Range Anti-Ship Missile looks a long time off (USN will be using F-18 with LRSAM IOC end of 2019), another option maybe the Norwegian 400kg/125kg warhead Joint Strike Missile, JSM, Norway made it a condition of their F-35A buy that JSM capability included in Block 4, expected in service 2022-4, Australia also procuring the JSM for its F-35As. The drawback of the JSM for the F-35B is that it will have to be carried externally degrading the stealth capabilities, the F-35B weapons bay is shorter than that of the F-35A due to lift fan. The fall back is the 100kg SPEAR 3 with a 20kg? warhead.

From <http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pag ... ility.aspx>

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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NickC wrote:another option maybe the Norwegian 400kg/125kg warhead Joint Strike Missile, JSM, Norway made it a condition of their F-35A buy that JSM capability included in Block 4, expected in service 2022-4, Australia also procuring the JSM for its F-35As. The drawback of the JSM for the F-35B is that it will have to be carried externally degrading the stealth capabilities, the F-35B weapons bay is shorter than that of the F-35A due to lift fan. The fall back is the 100kg SPEAR 3 with a 20kg? warhead.
JSM's range can easily counter what is lost in the way of stealth (bcz of external carriage).
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

seaspear
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by seaspear »

Is there much information on the Lockheed Martin CUDA missile for the F35

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

seaspear wrote:Is there much information on the Lockheed Martin CUDA missile for the F35
This came out mid-Sept: "The U.S. Air Force has funded a flight test demonstration program for Lockheed Martin’s Cuda air-to-air missile, pushing the concept forward more than five years after it first appeared"
- we all remember the RAND simulation for an air battle over the Strait of Formosa (that the F-35s lost, due to the combination of lack of range and running out of missiles) dated back well over that 5 yrs mentioned
- since then China has introduced their carrier killer missile, often likened to the 'good old' Pershing
- having loadsa of these new hit-to-kill missiles on planes flying off carriers can turn out to be very useful; here the much older PAC-3 (also HTK) takes out an 'evasive' Pershing in a test
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:
NickC wrote:another option maybe the Norwegian 400kg/125kg warhead Joint Strike Missile, JSM, Norway made it a condition of their F-35A buy that JSM capability included in Block 4, expected in service 2022-4, Australia also procuring the JSM for its F-35As. The drawback of the JSM for the F-35B is that it will have to be carried externally degrading the stealth capabilities, the F-35B weapons bay is shorter than that of the F-35A due to lift fan. The fall back is the 100kg SPEAR 3 with a 20kg? warhead.
JSM's range can easily counter what is lost in the way of stealth (bcz of external carriage).
Would have thought the shorter range F-35B compared to the F-35A plus the drag incurred by carrying missiles externally would increase the threat to the QNLZ/PoW as having to close with target for launch of F-35Bs and so increasing probability of discovery and coming under counter attack by one of the many Chinese/Russian systems, e.g. the Chinese YJ-12 supersonic AShM with its 500km/300 mile range.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Re. my above post should have mentioned that what severly limits the capability of the QNLZ/PoW/F-35B as a weapon system is no tankers carried.

USN F-18 carrier ops ~ 30% are for refueling, USN now funding $13B+ for development and build of 72 MQ-25 refueling drones. They scrapped their 90 KA-6 Intruder tankers, replaced them with the F-18 to simplify supply chain to save costs, but as not designed for role they wear out fast, turned out very expensive so now reverting to dedicated tankers with the MQ-25.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Well anything bigger than a 1000lb bomb needs to be hung on the outside of the J-35B so it doesn't matter whatever AShM we choose it ain't going inside. But we do need to really up our game in this area, the few Harpoon the Carrier Group will have are totally inadequate for the job. It also shows we need to beef up the Carrier Groups defences as I argued a month or so back. We simple cannot cope with a saturation attack using supersonic or faster AShMs with the current set up. China for example has looked at what the USSR was training to do in the Atlantic and improved it by combining land based weapon systems. If things ever turned hot we would have to operate off the coast of Australia to be safe.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by seaspear »

In a Defense Aerospace article on the 3rd of January it discussed that the F35A required 36 hours for the engine to be removed and believed a similar time to install , a Rafael on a U.S.N carrier with a six man maintenance crew took out that aircraft's engine in 3 .
I have not come across an article for the F35B engine ,but would wonder if it might take longer and if this is yet to be attempted on the Q.E carrier

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by bobp »

Just read the above mentioned article and it is not clear as to the amount of time needed, whether it is man hours or actual time. Nor does it state how many personnel are needed to do the job. I cant help thinking that Defense Aerospace are over exaggerating to make a story about the fuel lines that needed to be changed.

An article on f16net suggests a six man team can swap out a engine in 6 hours. Providing all the needed tools and maintenance rigs were available. Also because the engine itself is pretty reliable there has not been many actual engine changes been conducted.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Lord Jim wrote:Well anything bigger than a 1000lb bomb needs to be hung on the outside of the J-35B so it doesn't matter whatever AShM we choose it ain't going inside. But we do need to really up our game in this area, the few Harpoon the Carrier Group will have are totally inadequate for the job. It also shows we need to beef up the Carrier Groups defences as I argued a month or so back. We simple cannot cope with a saturation attack using supersonic or faster AShMs with the current set up. China for example has looked at what the USSR was training to do in the Atlantic and improved it by combining land based weapon systems. If things ever turned hot we would have to operate off the coast of Australia to be safe.
"have to operate off coast of Australia" USN planning for strike range of 1,200nm+ from carriers.

USN goal for the MQ-25 tanker is to be able to deliver 15,000 lb (6,800 kg) of fuel total to 4 to 6 airplanes at a range of 500nm, current strike range of a USN carrier air wing is now only about 450 nautical miles, effective unrefueled radius of a Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet (F-35C has a longer range). The additional 300 to 400 miles could potentially extend the reach of the fighters up to or beyond 700 nautical miles, with the LRASM is thought to have a range of greater than 500nm.

PS USN F-35C operating from USN Abraham Lincoln (CVN-72) was damaged during exercise while receiving fuel from an F/A-18F Super Hornet acting as a buddy tanker last August.

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