F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

[ArmChairCivvy]

sink billions into a next gen

Well, that is the theme... Norway was the first one to sign up to a firm, volume purchase, so one would suppose they got a "sweetheart" deal to induce them to take that step (OK, their f-16s are getting v old).

However, their 52 are already touching the $200m a piece mark (and this is for A's... not for the more expensive B's):

Defence Analysis; posted May 16, 2017
By Francis Tusa
"A fascinating snippet from the Norwegian Defence Procurement 2017–25 document:

“F-35 Upgrade. The purpose of the project is to increase the operational capability of the Armed Forces to perform offensive and defensive air operations. In order to achieve this goal upgrade of the F-35 Combat Fighter is needed. Update/upgrade the F-35 Combat Fighter according to the vendors upgrade programme adjusted to national/NATO ambition level.
Cost: NOK7–9-billion”

To be clear: this is spending on top and above that for the planned NOK-81-billion spend on buying 52 F-35As (UPC: $182-million), and it is needed to get them to the standard that will allow them to meet their operational requirements.

Wow! At face value, that means that Norway is having to spend up to 11% more – $1.05-billion – on making sure that the F-35A works as expected."

If the same happens with our planes (both budgets have items for airbase improvement included), the 1.11 X current budget = a round £10 bn

Rather than in any way being critical of Norway, hats off for them: with their early conversion, they will be operating as many 5th gen fighters as UK, France, Germany and Russia combined
- talking about Sweden... in less than three days we will know if we need to tip the hat for them, too??

[abc123]

The French mentality and their sense of pride means they will sink billions into a next gen F-35 competitor even if only they and the Germans ever use it. They cannot do anything else.

Also, better to sink billions into their own ecomomy, than in the US one...

[Lord Jim]

Yes it is great to sink Billions of Government funds into your national defence industries, the issue is that Government funding is finite so other areas will take a hit and if it result is a bespoke platform nobody else wants mainly due to price, unless the Government again spends a large amount subsidising foreign sales, you end up with a great sense of national pride but an empty wallet. To make matters worse the US could have operational combat UCAVs around the same time this Franco/German programmes offspring enter service. The European Typhoon and Rafale entered service just before the USA's F-22 and F-35. The USA's next generations platform, manned or unmanned could beat the French and Germans this time meaning their latest platform could be a generations behind already when it enters service.

[RetroSicotte]

The USA's next generations platform, manned or unmanned could beat the French and Germans this time meaning their latest platform could be a generations behind already when it enters service.

Honestly, I begin to have doubts that this French/German plane even is "next gen" at all. Thus far they haven't really announced anything that current generations like F-35 aren't already doing.

Remember that neither France or Germany have had any hand in developing F-35 type aircraft.

[abc123]

Yes it is great to sink Billions of Government funds into your national defence industries, the issue is that Government funding is finite so other areas will take a hit and if it result is a bespoke platform nobody else wants mainly due to price, unless the Government again spends a large amount subsidising foreign sales, you end up with a great sense of national pride but an empty wallet. To make matters worse the US could have operational combat UCAVs around the same time this Franco/German programmes offspring enter service. The European Typhoon and Rafale entered service just before the USA's F-22 and F-35. The USA's next generations platform, manned or unmanned could beat the French and Germans this time meaning their latest platform could be a generations behind already when it enters service.

Agreed, but:
What's the cost of Airbus and Dassault putting the key into a lock? Their workers and cooperators losing Jobs? France not being in the forefront of world of high tech development?
And political cost of being dependant on the US for main aerial combat system..


After all, the costs of independent Rafale program weren't so much greater than UKs share of half-baked Typhoon program.

[SKB]

F-35B.... at Yeovilton!

[RunningStrong]

F35B flypass confirmed for RIAT too.

[Ron5]

F-35B.... at Yeovilton!

Fly Navy !!!!!!!!!

[ArmChairCivvy]

Also the Italian early versions of Typhoons will have to live for longer, with the number of F-35s falling well under the planned number? DID of today informs:
"Italy may drop out of its F-35 deal with Lockheed Martin. Italy’s defense minister Elisabetta Trenta has said that the government will not buy more fighter jets and is considering whether to stick to the order to which it is already committed. Trenta comes from the anti-establishment 5-Star Movement which has always been critical of the multi-billion purchase, saying that the money would be better spent to strengthen welfare and invest in European defense projects. However, she also acknowledged the fact that cancelling the placed order may result in strong financial penalties. Italy is a Tier 2 partner in the F-35 JSF program and has made significant investments in its development. The country intends to host a European Final Assembly and Check-Out (FACO) production line in Cameri, near Milan."

The interconnected dynamics of the retirement of the Tornado (2024, the same that the UK was originally planning) and the arrival of the F-35 (looks like the numbers have shrunk again, for the second time) is likely (?) to bring about quite a reduction in the "mud movers" numbers and capability, with air policing/ QRA/ Air Defence being or becoming the priority
- our correspondents in Italy will be able to advise in more depth?

[Lord Jim]

F-35B.... at Yeovilton!

Fly Navy !!!!!!!!!

Pity they couldn't add FAA unit marking to at least one the F-35Bs to show the public the Navy will also use the plane. At the moment it is all RAF.

[downsizer]

Where do they say RAF on them?

[SKB]

I would imagine (and hope) their current paint schemes are temporary or short-term "service neutral" for mixed use by both the RAF and FAA while the number of F-35B's available are low. It would be nice when numbers increase if they were each painted per service and decorated with squadron insignia, although special "stealth paints" would be necessary.

[downsizer]

I would imagine (and hope) their current paint schemes are temporary or short-term "service neutral" for mixed use by both the RAF and FAA. It would be nice if they were painted per service and decorated with squadron insignia, although special "stealth paints" would be necessary.

You imagine wrong. They will be staying as they are.

[SKB]

Shame....

[CameronPerson]

Just got back from the flypast in London, it was nice to see all three Lightnings out and about - very noisy! Next big media event comes in a few weeks when we see the F-35 meet up with QE

[Little J]

I believe that they're going to Fairford and Farnborough first.

[Caribbean]

Fairford and Farnborough first

Yay - I have tickets for Farnborough

[ArmChairCivvy]

This (from FlightGlobal) is almost a year old; have any decisions been heard of (and will the increased thrust deal with the weight margins - which especially for the "B" have been close to critical at times?)?

"P&W is proposing to offer new performance improvements as each F135 engine enters a depot maintenance period, which is generally timed in five- to seven-year intervals.

Growth Option 1.0, which P&W claimed to validate in a ground test of a full engine earlier this year, proposes to update hardware and software controls in only the power module of the F135, which contains the high-pressure compressor, combustor and high-pressure turbine, Bromberg [President, Military Engines] says. P&W’s proposal calls for the JPO to fund an engineering and manufacturing development programme, but the production hardware would cost no more than the existing parts, he says. The upgrade also can be completed by the government’s depot workers.

As P&W discusses the proposed upgrade with the JPO, the company is working internally on Growth Option 2.0 package using a similar philosophy, Bromberg says. The second package also would be focused on delivering performance improvements, but stop short of inserting “third-stream” fan stage technology, Bromberg says."

[NickC]

Not sure if mentioned before, yesterday US State approved possible sale of up to 200 AIM-120D Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAMs) to UK for $650M / ~£500M, £2.5M each.

Assuming for F-35Bs, requirement driven by future F-35Bs Block 4 version that integrates Meteor so far in future, 2025+.

[RetroSicotte]

AIM-120Ds? That's a nice surprise. Big upgrade for the UKs AMRAAM use right there. The D model is a gigantic upgrade over the C.

[Lord Jim]

Could it be that although the Centurion Programme will integrate the Meteor on to the Typhoon we will not be actually buying any in the near future, but will continue to use the possibly cheaper AIM-120D across the fleet including a few tweaks to the T! airframes and also the F-35B. Orders for the Meteor following in the early to mid 2020s

[sunstersun]

yo that's over 50 times the operational stock of Germany's current typhoon a2a missiles.

Is is so hard to ask for some balance between Hitler and Dali Lama?

[benny14]

If anyone was watching the defence committee meeting today on future ASM. They said the F-35 is going to get the future joint UK-French ASM. So we are going to have to wait until the 2030s until we have dedicated air-launched ASM...

Also seems that the P8 is not getting Harpoons, I think we might be sharing with allies for now.

[abc123]

If anyone was watching the defence committee meeting today on future ASM. They said the F-35 is going to get the future joint UK-French ASM. So we are going to have to wait until the 2030s until we have dedicated air-launched ASM...

Also seems that the P8 is not getting Harpoons, I think we might be sharing with allies for now.

As expected...

[Ron5]

If anyone was watching the defence committee meeting today on future ASM. They said the F-35 is going to get the future joint UK-French ASM. So we are going to have to wait until the 2030s until we have dedicated air-launched ASM...

Also seems that the P8 is not getting Harpoons, I think we might be sharing with allies for now.

One of the nice things about the F-35 program is that everybody's aircraft will operated everybody's weapons. So if any ASM is qualified on any country's F-35B (and I haven't kept up enough to know if any are in plan), then all it needs is a UOR to buy some of those missiles, train the pilots, and bombs away.