F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.
Scimitar54
Senior Member
Posts: 1701
Joined: 13 Jul 2015, 05:10
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Scimitar54 »

BlueD954
I’ll go further then, since you do not seem to be able to take a hint:-

It does not matter, if it is fired from beyond the range of the S2A missile “threats”.

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

A great spot from Gabriele. The original tweeter is based in Gander (Canada). So there is a trail in progress or about to be for the 3 UK F-35B to take us to 18 in the UK and 21 overall.


Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Which in turn means its time to update this...

Amendments highlighted in red font since last time:

So of the UK's '48' here's the status:
Note - Delivery is 'usually' a minimum of 2 years after order.

Delivered to date

Contract - Order Date - UK involvement
LRIP 1 - April 2007 - No UK Orders, (US F-35A only)
LRIP 2 - July 2007 - No UK Orders (6 F-35B for USMC, first F-35B order)
LRIP 3 - May 2008 - 2 x UK F-35B order - Test aircraft for ITF (not combat capable)
LRIP 4 - Nov 2009 - 1 x UK F-35B order - First 'Combat Capable' aircraft - BK-03
LRIP 5 - Dec 2011 - No UK Orders
LRIP 6 - Sept 2013 - No UK Orders
LRIP 7 - Sept 2013 - 1 x UK F-35B Order - Additional Test aircraft for ITF (not combat capable)
LRIP 8 - Nov 2014 - 4 x UK F-35B Order
LRIP 9 - Nov 2015 - 6 x UK F-35B Order
LRIP 10 - 2016 - 3 x UK F-35B Order
LRIP 11 - 2017 - 1 x UK F-35B Order
LRIP 12 - Nov 2018 - 3 x UK F-35B Order

Total - 21 Delivered

On Order, Not delivered - Note LRIP's 12, 13 and 14 were done together as a 'Bulk Buy'

LRIP 13 - Nov 2018 - 6 x UK F-35B Order - To to be delivered in 2021
LRIP 14 - Nov 2018 - 8 x UK F-35B Order - To to be delivered in 2022

Total - 14 contracted

Next Steps
Full Rate Production Orders (FRP) - Will be placed once pricing agreed

Delivery Sequence - Expected Delivery Date - Total UK A/C
FRP Delivery 1 - 2023 - 2 x UK F-35B
FRP Delivery 2 - 2024 - 4 x UK F-35B
FRP Delivery 3 - 2025 - 7 x UK F-35B - These were all previously expected by 2024 at latest

Total - 13 Promised/Confirmed Ordering Intention by MoD

It's worth reflecting on the fact that the deliveries in 2021 and 2022 will, in each year, increase the number of 'combat capable' F-35B for the UK by 33% (18 to 24 in 2021, 24 to 32 in 2022), but it then takes c2.5-3 years for a similar increase to occur again. The next 2 years deliveries in practice almost double our F-35B inventory, when you exclude the ITF aircraft and the earlier production examples that require significant updates to 'Full Capability' Blk.4 standard (BK-03 and others, to a lesser extent, in LRIP 8).

For those of us who would like to see the UK's F-35B increase to 70+ by 2030 I'm afraid the future looks bleak. Aircraft for delivery after FRP Delivery 3 in 2025 (i.e. 2026 onwards) would need to be ordered in 2024 onwards (given the 2 year lead time). That means we have 5 years (2024, 25, 26 ,27 and 28) in which to place orders for aircraft that could arrive before the end of 2030. To get to a figure of 73 in total we'd need to order 5 aircraft in each of those years. That would be >£600m per year at a bare minimum. And given the pressure on the MoD's EP, even with the recent 'additional' monies it just doesn't look like the money will be there. Particularly as Tempest will consume increasing sums of the budget in those years and Tranche 2 Typhoon really needs a radar upgrade too.

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Confirmation, the 3 are on their way to Marham


Bring Deeps
Donator
Posts: 217
Joined: 27 May 2015, 21:06
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Bring Deeps »

No RAF roundel up front. Significant?

bobp
Senior Member
Posts: 2684
Joined: 06 May 2015, 07:52
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by bobp »

Bring Deeps wrote:No RAF roundel up front. Significant?
Probably not but the lightning flash is missing off the tail as well so no doubt it will get sorted.

User avatar
SKB
Senior Member
Posts: 7931
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:35
England

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by SKB »

Newest planes are:
Build no. (Registration)
BK19 (ZM153)
BK20 (ZM154)
BK21 (ZM155)

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

seaspear wrote:i dont know if the dimensions of this device would fit in the internal bay of the f35b
https://newatlas.com/military/f-35a-moc ... ight-test/
https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... lear-bomb/
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ation-bomb
Does this have anything to do with Germany not ordering this aircraft?
B-61/12 should fit dimensionally in F-35B, just, but it's unlikely to be trialled as the USMC (and USN) have no requirement for gravity nuclear weapons, and no potential F-35B operators have nuclear weapon sharing agreements with the US (with the poss exception of the UK, who also have no requirement for gravity nuclear weapons).

But Germany wouldn't have been ordering the F-35B anyway, they would have been ordering F-35A. Which is the aircraft the current trials are being carried out on. Truth is F-35A is the aircraft the Germans should be ordering....but politics have gotten in the way. The F/A-18E/F (which they haven't ordered yet, and in fact may never order..) should really be the 3rd or even 4th US built aircraft that the Germans would consider for the nuclear mission.
1) F-35A - Obvious choice, LO and the US is paying for integration of B61/12, at least 4 neighbouring states to Germany will be using it so plenty of scope for collaboration to reduce overall costs of a small buy. Future proofed.
2) F-15E - US paying for integration, superlative aircraft with colossal range.
3) F-16 - US paying for integration, new models very capable. Huge worldwide support. Cheap (ish)
4) F/A-18E/F - Not integrated with B-61, Germany will have to pay huge costs to do so. Shortly out of production. Only makes sense if you really, really have to get EA-18G. But even then the case is marginal to say the least.

The sensible move for Germany is to get F-35A in small numbers for the nuclear mission (say 30 a/c) then fund the Typhoon ECR (the development of which won't cost much more than F/A-18 B-61 integration) and buy some more Typhoon in the Quadriga standard. This keeps the Typhoon line open longer until FCAS takes over, keeps jobs in Germany etc. It also gives the GAF the opportunity to operate a LO platform for years before they get their FCAS. They can develop training and tactics to their hearts content beforehand. You'd think that German experience feeding in to FCAS would interest the French as a FCAS consortium partner, who also have no experience with LO platforms and won't do until FCAS. But they seem to be one of the hurdles to the Germans buying F-35A.

jonas
Senior Member
Posts: 1110
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 19:20
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by jonas »


Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

18 in the UK now...


Scimitar54
Senior Member
Posts: 1701
Joined: 13 Jul 2015, 05:10
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Scimitar54 »

The additional 3 cabs ought to bring 617 Sqdn. up to strength, just in time for IOC (Maritime) next month! :mrgreen:

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

That number, or the planned 24 compares quite favourably with the US plans for taking the Lightning 2 to sea. From the IISS blog:
"The first operational deployment at sea of the US Navy’s F-35C conventional carrier variant of the Lightning II will be in 2021 aboard the USS Carl Vinson. However, the ship’s air wing will include just one squadron of ten F-35Cs, with the bulk of aircraft made up of F/A-18E/F Super Hornets. In the future, F-35C numbers aboard each US carrier will reportedly rise to 16 or 20, but they would still be outnumbered by Super Hornets.
[...]

The US Navy took 13 USMC F-35Bs to sea aboard the large-deck amphibious-assault ship USS America in late 2019. This was to test the ‘Lightning carrier’ concept, which foresees the deployment of larger numbers of fighter aircraft aboard the large US amphibious ships to support amphibious operations and supplement the full-size carriers. Normally, these ships would deploy about six F-35Bs or the earlier AV-8B Harrier II. Under the Lightning carrier concept, the numbers could go up to 16−20 aircraft."
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:That number, or the planned 24 compares quite favourably with the US plans for taking the Lightning 2 to sea. From the IISS blog:
"The first operational deployment at sea of the US Navy’s F-35C conventional carrier variant of the Lightning II will be in 2021 aboard the USS Carl Vinson. However, the ship’s air wing will include just one squadron of ten F-35Cs, with the bulk of aircraft made up of F/A-18E/F Super Hornets. In the future, F-35C numbers aboard each US carrier will reportedly rise to 16 or 20, but they would still be outnumbered by Super Hornets.
[...]

The US Navy took 13 USMC F-35Bs to sea aboard the large-deck amphibious-assault ship USS America in late 2019. This was to test the ‘Lightning carrier’ concept, which foresees the deployment of larger numbers of fighter aircraft aboard the large US amphibious ships to support amphibious operations and supplement the full-size carriers. Normally, these ships would deploy about six F-35Bs or the earlier AV-8B Harrier II. Under the Lightning carrier concept, the numbers could go up to 16−20 aircraft."
Here's the old CVW Slide from 2019
Image

And the new CVW Slide from 2020
Image

Whats unclear is if the 2020 slide is showing the period leading (or building) to 2030, and the ambition for 2030+ is correct on the 2019 slide. Or if it is a wholly new view on 2030+ and should therefore replace the 2030 section on the 2019 slide.

Personally, I think, with the seemingly flexible totals for the MQ-25, MH-60 and EA-18G, that the USN is looking at the 2020 slide as the future view from 2030, with a degree of flexibility dependent on the threat and environment(more MQ-25 and EA-18G for the Pacific for example). But it does show a decrease in the F-35C numbers from 20 to 16 if that is the case, with a corresponding increase in F/A-18E/F numbers to compensate.

It's also worth looking at the armament that the air wing will be able to deploy, no mention of AIM-260 (which is odd)...but a real emphasis on long range munitions and the ability to penetrate an AD 'bubble' with JASSM-ER, MALD-N, SDBII and AARGM-ER. By 2030 all of these munitions 'should' be available for F-35C as well as F/A-18. Add in the MQ-25 which will effectively increase the range of the air wing and the numbers of F/A-18 available routinely by at least 4 in practice (by replacing the F/A-18 that are always tasked for tanking), the upgrade to Block III for the F/A-18 fleet and the USN carrier air wing is looking fairly healthy. Totally recapitalised from the Cold War.

After 2026 if QE or PoW was working alongside a US CV in an operational environment it would make a lot of sense for the RN to handle CAP with Asraam CSP and Meteor providing superior A2A missiles, but the USN looking after Strike with their far superior mix of A2G munitions (Spear and Spear EW will provide a comparable capablity to some of the USN munitions, but JASSM, LRASM and AARGM are in a different class in terms of range and effect).

I know I've banged on about this before...but we're getting 48 (hopefully as a minimum) Low Observable strike fighters. We'll be able to deploy more on a carrier at sea than anyone else until at least 2040. And thats an incredible capability compared to anyone. 36 on a QE Class would be astonishing. But one of the limiting factors will be the weaponry that we have available. 24+ F-35B on a QE should be one of the main tools for kicking down the door on an enemy's defences, and we're just not going to have all of the tools necessary.

NickC
Donator
Posts: 1432
Joined: 01 Sep 2017, 14:20
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by NickC »

Unbelievably the new Ford cannot operate with the F-35C, it would seem the necessary kit was not cheap and as ship was way over budget USN deleted the requirement, Congress when found out they were upset and have insisted the necessary kit be installed on the 2nd ship of the Ford class the Kennedy, which as Ford the USN had not spec'd to operate the F-35C.

seaspear
Senior Member
Posts: 1779
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 20:16
Australia

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by seaspear »

NickC wrote:Unbelievably the new Ford cannot operate with the F-35C, it would seem the necessary kit was not cheap and as ship was way over budget USN deleted the requirement, Congress when found out they were upset and have insisted the necessary kit be installed on the 2nd ship of the Ford class the Kennedy, which as Ford the USN had not spec'd to operate the F-35C.
https://breakingdefense.com/2020/04/nav ... will-wait/
This article suggests political influence from Congress had a hand in the priorities given to scheduling

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Yes,
"ordered the Navy to get to work refitting the Kennedy before it sets sail in 2024, forcing the Navy to improvise and refit the just-christened ship."

Hence
"The first operational deployment at sea of the US Navy’s F-35C conventional carrier variant of the Lightning II will be in 2021 aboard the USS Carl Vinson [35 yrs old; just verifies 'our' story abt the 50 yrs service life for our carriers]. However, the ship’s air wing will include just one squadron of ten F-35Cs, with the bulk of aircraft made up of F/A-18E/F Super Hornets. In the future, F-35C numbers aboard each US carrier will reportedly rise...
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Jdam
Member
Posts: 922
Joined: 09 May 2015, 22:26
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Jdam »

What is involved with getting a carrier F-35 ready? Computer related maybe? I just find it surprising the US navy's newest carrier can't support them.

seaspear
Senior Member
Posts: 1779
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 20:16
Australia

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by seaspear »

Would the older carriers require a thermion coating ?

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

seaspear wrote:thermion coating ?
for operating the 'C' model?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

seaspear wrote:Would the older carriers require a thermion coating ?
Thermion (or the UK coating from Monitor) is only necessary in small patches for the heat generated by engines with exhausts pointing at the deck for sustained periods of time i.e. F-35B. No need for it on US CVN for it to be able to operate F-35C. Although there has, in the past, been some concern around the heat of the exhaust from V-22. So it might make an appearance on US CVN on landing spots for CMV-22.

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Jdam wrote:What is involved with getting a carrier F-35 ready? Computer related maybe? I just find it surprising the US navy's newest carrier can't support them.
Any new aircraft on a carrier will require some alterations. The arrival of Rafale, and its later full replacement of SEM, on CdG required a dock period. This can be for changes in storage, changes in maintenance areas, changes in the markings on the flight deck to accommodate a different aircraft, different towing equipment. Basically lots of different areas will need adaptation. One of the main, and most expensive, changes now will be to data systems and combat management to be able to handle the huge volume of information that an F-35 receives and processes. They'll also be looking to install simulators in the ship for F-35 so that missions can be planned and synthetic training can be undertaken whilst underway.

BlueD954
Member
Posts: 233
Joined: 02 Oct 2020, 05:11
Singapore

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by BlueD954 »

21 and counting


BlueD954
Member
Posts: 233
Joined: 02 Oct 2020, 05:11
Singapore

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by BlueD954 »

https://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTIC ... HTML&src=0

II.2.4)
Description of the procurement:
A new contract is required to procure a modification of the current LII F-35B pilot flight jacket to make provision for man-mounted auto-activation HR Smith beacons under Service Modification 003 (SM003).

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Some facts and figures...looks like pilot numbers aren't a major concern at present (although some are bound to have left in that time period/been promoted etc.)


User avatar
SKB
Senior Member
Posts: 7931
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:35
England

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by SKB »

We don't really "have" 21 for frontline duty, we've got 18. BK-01 (XM135), BK-02 (XM136) and BK-04 (XM138) are still at Eglin AFB in Florida, and they're test aircraft. Maybe they'll get converted like BK-03 (XM137) was and flown over to Marham to join the others. But probably not.

Post Reply