F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.
Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

serge750 wrote:Would the US send a stores ship to RAS with QE/POW to supply weapons when their F35's are onboard ? along with a destroyer?
That may be one of the options. Probably the most likely though is loading at a friendly port, as apart from the aircraft they will also need to load US personnel, spares, maintenance eqpt and a whole host of things. Far quicker to pull into a port and meet the USMC contingent en masse than do a very time consuming RAS (remember there will be no Heavy RAS on the US stores ship, even with Vertrep the amount of kit to move would be colossal.

Scimitar54
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Scimitar54 »

There is no Heavy RAS rig on Fort Victoria either!

Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

seaspear wrote:Apart from Meteor which may be deployed on the carrier which are the differences in weapons loadouts between the U.S.M.C and R.N aircraft as I understand only block 4 aircraft can field Meteor will the aircraft to be deployed be such ?
The question should be phrased more as 'what are the similarities'. UK air weapons are now on a completely divergent path from the US. US air weapons are only considered now if there is an urgent need that cannot be met elsewhere, to close a temporary gap (Amraam D purchase) or where the cost for UK weapons (at least initially) would be too high, usually because of integration costs or time (P-8 Poseidon).

The only weapons the UK F-35B fleet will have in common with the US is:

Amraam C-5 - Only for a short time as they will be withdrawn as they will be out of life.
Amraam D - Arriving in small numbers ('up to' 200) in 2022ish for Typhoon Tranche 1 and F-35 (at least until Meteor is integrated c2025/6)
Gun Pod - If we ever actually order any....

Beyond that the UK air weapons will all be UK manufacture including:

Asraam - Legacy Asraam until the below arrives...
Asraam CSP - From 2025/6 Block IV
Meteor - From 2025/6 Block IV
Paveway IV - Already cleared for use, main air to ground store
Spear - From 2025/6 Block IV
Spear EW - From 2025 Block IV (not confirmed but likely)
SpearGlide - From 2025 Block IV (not confirmed but likely)
Other Spear developments - Recently mentioned by the RAF and MBDA, probably a simpler, cheaper version to compete with SDB1 and a Recon Version.
Paveway IV Penetrator - From 2025 Block IV (gone quiet, but apparently still underway)

The direction of travel is pretty clear. The UK will not be using US air munitions where it can possibly avoid it, or more correctly will be purchasing UK/European munitions by preference. The main reason is sovereignty and industrial concerns. But also these new weapons tend to outperform the US equivalents (and I suspect there are still people pissed off at the US for welching on Asraam). Typhoon and Protector will also be using UK weapons (with the exception of the Amraam D purchase). Apache E isn't fully confirmed yet, but the odds are on a UK weapon fit (Brimstone instead of Hellfire/JAGM, although APKWS may make an appearance).

This will leave us with some gaps. The withdrawal of Paveway II and the eventual withdrawal of EPWIII will leave the RAF without a 'heavy' munition capability. This may be possible to be closed by the development and acquisition of the SmartGlider Heavy from MBDA which would provide a JSOW style capability (hopefully with interchangeable payloads). FCASW will eventually arrive as well to replace Storm Shadow on Typhoon and hopefully get added to F-35.

Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Scimitar54 wrote:There is no Heavy RAS rig on Fort Victoria either!
Indeed but there is the aspiration to get them on the one day to be ordered FSS (possibly...)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Scimitar54 »

No use for the first operational deployment in 2021!

Ron5
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

@Timmy ignoring the incorrect claim about the US welching on ASRAAM (check your history books), you completely forgot to mention helicopter borne weapons in your list.

Jdam
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Jdam »

Timmymagic wrote:
Amraam D - Arriving in small numbers ('up to' 200) in 2022ish for Typhoon Tranche 1 and F-35 (at least until Meteor is integrated c2025/6)
I thought the D's were for the F-35 only, would love to read were you got that from? Always wanted the Tranche 1 to get the D but I didn't know it had been confirmed.

Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Jdam wrote:I thought the D's were for the F-35 only, would love to read were you got that from? Always wanted the Tranche 1 to get the D but I didn't know it had been confirmed.
Speculation to a degree, but without the D the Tranche 1's will be left without a BVR missile until their OSD of 2030ish when the C-5's retire. And thats not a good look for QRA...

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by abc123 »

Lord Jim wrote:I think it is a safe bet that there are people in the MoD and Pentagon looking into this as we speak. We are deploying a joint air wing and that air wing has to be able to fight, no matter how unlikely it may be on next years cruise. Well that is what I think should be happening logically.
You mean combined?

But never mind that, what if situation happens like this now with Iran, where US president orders US forces to attack "Iran" and UK Prime Minister decides that Britain won't have anything with that?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Ron5 wrote:@Timmy ignoring the incorrect claim about the US welching on ASRAAM (check your history books), you completely forgot to mention helicopter borne weapons in your list.
I didn't forget to mention helicopter carried munitions. See the point about Apache E. We don't know what it will be carrying yet, the direction of travel appears to be moving towards Brimstone 3 or a development. The Hellfire missiles in stock for Apache D will be reaching end of live in due course. They're primarily the L variant for anti-armour work. The K's will also be out of life. Stockpile of N's and P's should have been exhausted as well from use. Any Hellfire R's may stay in service a little longer on either Protector (if cleared for use) or Apache until they too are out of life. Obviously the UK uses CRV-7 at present, but the failure to adopt a precision guided version may lead to a purchase of APKWS. As for other rotary wing the other guided weapons carried are UK (e.g. Sea Venom, Martlet, Stingray)

Lord Jim
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

ASRAAM not becoming the standard NATO WVR missile is an interesting story. If I remember a lot was to do with cost and the divergence of countries requirements, such as Germany wanting a shorter range more agile missile than ASRAAM. But under the surface how much was actually wanting to maintain their in country capability rather than adopt ASRAAM? Is the AIM.9X a better missile?, Would ASRAAM have met the majority of the USA's needs. Wasn't the NATO agreement everyone adopts AMRAAM designed in the USA for BVR and ASRAAM for WVR designed in the UK?

Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Lord Jim wrote:ASRAAM not becoming the standard NATO WVR missile is an interesting story.
I don't think anyone will ever agree on the reasons. But the feeling within the UK was that the German's bailed for industrial reasons and the US bailed after getting AMRAAM in prime position.

Ultimately I think we're lucky they all bailed. We've ended up with a superb WVR weapon, the Germans have got their IRIS-T, the US has the AIM-9X. But in the meantime we've got some decent export sales for Asraam, the US bailing on Asraam led to the UK going domestic with Meteor, which has in turn led to the UK fielding the best air to air missiles on its aircraft, and although Sky Flash was good thats the first time its happened. And there is a clear path way forward to maintain that. The UK's domestic air to air missile industry is also looking in rude health, we've also ended up with a decent SAM system which is racking up sales at land and sea, with more developments of it along the way and doubtless more sales to come.

All in all a bit of a result...we should thank the US and Germany really...

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

And the way SPEAR 3 is shaping up, if the cost is right it could also be a good seller. The EW version especially is a novel approach that seems to be unique, allowing low visibility platforms to jam enemy radars without giving away their position to passive EW sensors.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Lord Jim wrote:And the way SPEAR 3 is shaping up, if the cost is right it could also be a good seller. The EW version especially is a novel approach that seems to be unique, allowing low visibility platforms to jam enemy radars without giving away their position to passive EW sensors.
The Spear family is looking like its becoming a very compelling proposition for Typhoon and F-35 operators. That is of course if it works as advertised, but given the technological maturity of the sensors, engine and EW package that looks to be a fairly safe bet.

In order to receive any orders from F-35 users, outside of the UK, like all non-US weapons it will need to do one or more of the following:

- Be significantly cheaper (unlikely in this case)
- Be exportable to nations the US won't (not in this case, but an advantage the French and Israeli's often have)
- Non-ITAR restricted (true for Spear, but not really an advantage in F-35 users)
- Have significant performance advantage over US equivalents (Meteor, IRIS-T and Asraam are examples. Spear looks like it will tick this box).
- Be used across multiple platforms (For Spear that would only apply to Typhoon and F-35 users at present, i.e UK and Italy perhaps Spain later)
- Offer a new or unique capability (Spear does seem to do this)
- National industrial concerns (True for the UK and Italy in this case)
- Prospective customers aren't making their own equivalent munitions (US has MALD and SDBII, Israel has Spice 250, France may get SmartGlider. They're the only direct competitors.)

Without doing one or more of the above the chances of a US ally adopting a non-US weapon are slim. They'll usually go for a US analogue, and lets be honest, that's usually a good idea. The US will incrementally improve a weapon over its lifetime, it will be reasonably priced due to volumes and in service support will be there (as long as you stay friends with the US). There is also the possibility of using US stocks in the event of a crisis. To get adopted by another nation you really need to be ticking multiple boxes convincingly.

The Spear family (and the family bit is absolutely crucial) appears to be heading in the right direction. Right now the UK is nailed on as a user for F-35 and Typhoon. I think Italy, Germany, Saudi Arabia and Qatar will be near certain customers for some Spear variants. Kuwait and Oman are also possibilities. But they're all Typhoon users. The real trick will be getting other F-35 users to purchase it, and integrating it on other platforms. And that's going to be really hard.

To get other F-35 users onboard, the strategy to take, which MBDA appears to be following, is to get that many variants, some of which are unique, to make it an entire system that you'd be mad not to buy. And in addition match other weapons capabilities to reduce their pull factor. The 'original' Spear is fairly compelling and unique, SpearGlide matches SDB2, Spear-EW is unique. What is needed to round the range off is a cheap Spear, just GPS/INS and, perhaps, SAL to directly match with SDB1, hard target penetration would be required. They're also talking about further 'spiral' developments. In addition to the SimpleSpear the only other variant that would make sense at present, given the capabilities and size of the Spear form factor would be using it as an reconnaissance asset for a look 'over the hill' or for BDA. If they did it right it could be the first 'Wingman' to get out there, and certainly the only one planned for the F-35 at present.

Apart from that I'm stumped as to what other variants that could be fielded...I'm all ears, I don't think it has the volume for that many 'novel' payloads like EMP payloads or carbon fibre filaments to make it worthwhile.

Getting the French onboard and abandoning the SmartGlider Light would make sense for MBDA as well (and the French).

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

I wonder if the SPEAR 3 EW will have a decoy function, just enough visibility to make the other person believe an F-35 is inbound and switch on his (or hers) radars and bang the actual F-35 redirects the other SPEAR 3s in flight to take them out, whilst sitting more than 100km away opening a hole for others to exploit.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by SW1 »

Lord Jim wrote:I wonder if the SPEAR 3 EW will have a decoy function, just enough visibility to make the other person believe an F-35 is inbound and switch on his (or hers) radars and bang the actual F-35 redirects the other SPEAR 3s in flight to take them out, whilst sitting more than 100km away opening a hole for others to exploit.
https://world.eurofighter.com/articles/brite-thinking

It marks a fundamental change in the ability of friendly air forces to conduct their missions despite the presence of enemy air defences. SPEAR EW acts as a stand-in jammer which greatly increases the survivability of the Eurofighter by suppressing enemy air defences. It can be used for multiple different types of EW. At one end of the spectrum it could simply jam a radar, effectively blinding it, and at the other it could mimic 100s of different objects, therefore creating a mask.

This flexibility gives a pilot a range of options. Blinding a threat radar is an overt action but they can call on more subtle effects. For example, SPEAR EW can be used to create a decoy by making you appear bigger or appear as though there are 50 targets so that it’s impossible for an adversary to determine which is the real target.

Alternatively, you might want to encourage the threat target to start shooting which would enable your forces to find it. Another option could be to get the adversary to train their fire at an imaginary target and therefore allow you through their defences.

SPEAR EW isn’t simply restricted to land targets. It could be used for maritime strike to blind or confuse a ship.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Lord Jim wrote:I wonder if the SPEAR 3 EW will have a decoy function, just enough visibility to make the other person believe an F-35 is inbound and switch on his (or hers) radars and bang the actual F-35 redirects the other SPEAR 3s in flight to take them out, whilst sitting more than 100km away opening a hole for others to exploit.
That will be its main role. Jamming wise I wouldn't expect a huge amount from a payload that small and with limited power generation.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by RetroSicotte »

I can't help but imagine the beauty of being able to lob a Spear-EW every few hours toward an enemy's SAM network spewing false contacts and watch them waste all those expensive massive SAM battery munitions on essentially thin air around a single munition. The sheer level of information denial such a long range EW trickster creates is very open to inventive thinking.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by dmereifield »

Are we not susceptible to the same?

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

Well we don't have large numbers of expensive SAMs for one thing.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

dmereifield wrote:Are we not susceptible to the same?
Totally. But cunningly we don't have extensive SAM system's to get seduced....hence no wastage of munitions.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by dmereifield »

Phew, that's a relief

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by RetroSicotte »

dmereifield wrote:Are we not susceptible to the same?
Note quite. Western doctrine doesn't rely on giant walls of SAMs pointing in given directions, but on air superiority. That gives you the initiative to be the one launching from an active, moving location at the static, known areas. In theory yes a Patriot battery could be baited, but the effect is much more minimalised as the greater force isn't relying on it. SAMs to western forces are more specific in nature than the mass wealth of "create a wall of air defence" we seen from the OPFOR end.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by sunstersun »

On talking ordnance for the F-35 and what not. Roughly 2 A2A missiles will hit the US market in the next couple of years.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-260_JATM


Steep competition coming for the Meteor. Also the Peregrine, which is like the AMRAAM but half the size.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... aiting-for

In combination with Lockheed's sidekick program, we could have 12 A2A missiles held internally on a F-35. Beast mode could plausibly carry 28+ A2A missiles lol.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by sunstersun »

The most impressive ordnance export I've seen is Norway's NSM. It's already been bought by the USN and being considered for F-35's and frigates etc.

Incredible stuff coming from a country Norway's size.

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