F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

[seaspear]

With what has jut been discussed to rate this aircraft as fifth generation , is there any information that other claimed fifth generation aircraft have these abilities , or are they just a 4++ stealthier fighter

[shark bait]

With what has jut been discussed to rate this aircraft as fifth generation , is there any information that other claimed fifth generation aircraft have these abilities , or are they just a 4++ stealthier fighter

I think its difficult and some what trivial to draw lines to say what belongs in which camp. But for the sake of discussion I would say the F35 is the first (and only) true 5th gen. As I put earlier I would call the F22 a "4++ stealthier fighter". If the F35 delivers as promised it think it will be a clear step above all others.

Its not to say the 4++ are no longer relevant, they just have clearly different advantages so will be used differently, and thats where I would draw the line. The F22 is used similarly to any other 4th gen, but a 5th gen will be used fundamentally differently.

I think the discussion fit well with an article TD posted today.

Stillion concludes that these advances may have fundamentally transformed the nature of air combat. This transformation may be steadily reducing the utility of some attributes traditionally associated with fighter aircraft (e.g., extreme speed and maneuverability) while increasing the value of attributes not usually associated with fighter aircraft (e.g., sensor and weapon payload as well as range). As a result, an effective sixth-generation “fighter” may look similar to a future “bomber”

[seaspear]

I was thinking of some aircraft that had been built in China and Russia that have been built in immitation and had accessed some information about the F35, gaining similar appearance but not ability

[Tony Williams]

I think the discussion fit well with an article TD posted today.

Stillion concludes that these advances may have fundamentally transformed the nature of air combat. This transformation may be steadily reducing the utility of some attributes traditionally associated with fighter aircraft (e.g., extreme speed and maneuverability) while increasing the value of attributes not usually associated with fighter aircraft (e.g., sensor and weapon payload as well as range). As a result, an effective sixth-generation “fighter” may look similar to a future “bomber”

We've been there several times before (see below for one example). The idea that the performance of modern sensors and missiles means that fighters need only be missile trucks emerges about once every generation, before disappearing again. Maybe it really will be different this time, but we won't know until the test of combat against a technologically near-peer enemy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_F6D_Missileer

[Pseudo]

My amateurish feeling is that many of the benefits of fifth generation fighters will only really be realised against sub-fifth generation combatants. I'm not sure what peer fifth generation fighter combat will look like, but I'd imagine that it would rely quite heavily on things like IRST.

[ArmChairCivvy]

My amateurish feeling is that many of the benefits of fifth generation fighters will only really be realised against sub-fifth generation combatants.

Two points:
1. Over the next 15 years at least, the majority of what is flown will be sub-fifth. You can enhance the efficacy of your "legacy" fleet in a highly levered way by being able to mix in some 5th gen
2. The reverse holds true, too. If you decide to stand still and the opponent does the above, you will be at a distinctive disadvantage.[ goes for potential opponents. too, as your ability to deter will have been much diminished, and you may have to just sit by and accept what is happening, rather than being able to influence by means short of a shooting war.]

[Lugzy]

I must admit I'm not a f-35 fan , it just seems to contradict its self , the f-35 program is like a pyramid scheme , and we got sucked into it , Blair and then Gordy got sold on the idea because they wanted to be part of the club and one of the cool kids . It promised the world , a jack of all trades but in reality for the foreseeable future it will be master of none.

I've never seen such a one way battle regarding the f-35 , it's been trashed rightly or wrongly by everyone including ppl who work on it , have flown it , and flown against it, and it's easy to say if it looks like a duck , quacks like a duck , you might have to at least consider it could be a duck . And I find it hard to say after such long delays it's still early days.

Which is why in my opinion there are nervous calls in the U.S. To reopen the f-22 production line (if this is possible I don't know ) , also keeping open the f-15 line , it seems the USAF strategy will be to send in the f-22s to clear the way then let the f-35s do what they need to do , great but in our case we don't have a Equivalent to the f-22 , so it will be interesting to see how we will use the f-35b in anything other than low intensity warfare.

I just don't feel there's any confidence in this aircraft and tbh I can't see any big jump in capabilities it will bring which leaves other 4+++ gen aircraft eating its dust . Yes it's systems are very advanced but when you bring it back to basics it does seem to struggle .

It's been a long drawn out affair regarding the f-35 and it's not over yet , but the world as moved on and by the time the f-35 is fully operational protential enemies could be flying anything from su 35s , T-50 , J-20 incorporating highly adavanced air to air missiles short-long range , plus advanced electronic warfare capability , and be using state of the art air defence missile systems such as the Russian s300 or s400 or future equivalent , plus adavanced search and tracking radars. The world as deffenitly not stood still .

I know what ever happens we have no choice now , are backs are against the wall and we have put all our eggs in one basket in regards to the f-35b being the only fast jet aircraft our carriers can embark and opperate , which tbh annoys the hell out of me that we have no other option available , so we have to make them work and even if it doesn't perform as advertised I'm sure the Goverment spin doctors will never disclose that after all imagine the embarrassment .

Sorry if this seems like a rant but these are just a few of my concerns , I'm no expert so maybe I missed something which makes my concerns unjustified , tbh I hope so

[Pseudo]

My amateurish feeling is that many of the benefits of fifth generation fighters will only really be realised against sub-fifth generation combatants.

Two points:
1. Over the next 15 years at least, the majority of what is flown will be sub-fifth. You can enhance the efficacy of your "legacy" fleet in a highly levered way by being able to mix in some 5th gen
2. The reverse holds true, too. If you decide to stand still and the opponent does the above, you will be at a distinctive disadvantage.[ goes for potential opponents. too, as your ability to deter will have been much diminished, and you may have to just sit by and accept what is happening, rather than being able to influence by means short of a shooting war.]

Indeed. Though my point was in relation to the idea of fifth generation fighters being able to rely entirely on sensors and missiles, which I don't think will be the case against fifth generation peer opposition. Don't get me wrong, I expect that the F-35 as advertised will be all kinds of awesome and represent a fundamental shift in air combat, but my point is that against similarly capable aircraft it's advantages might be mostly negated and I'm not convinced that relying on opponents to mostly field less capable aircraft for the next three or four decades is a particularly good strategy.

[shark bait]

I must admit I'm not a f-35 fan , it just seems to contradict its self , the f-35 program is like a pyramid scheme , and we got sucked into it , Blair and then Gordy got sold on the idea because they wanted to be part of the club and one of the cool kids . It promised the world , a jack of all trades but in reality for the foreseeable future it will be master of none.

Long post so I only quoted the top bit

I think the F35 is a victim of its own size. It is a massive program, that has been run terribly and is so far going horribly which make the aircraft and easy victim for the press to target. There is so much miss reporting from papers claiming it cant fly, to pilots forced to say its the best thing ever. In reality its still in development so we don't fully know where it will end up.

I think we do have an F22 equivalent in typhoon, which will have excellent stand of weapon capabilities soon surpassing that of the F22, making up for its lack of stealth. I also don't know how we could have another jet option for our carriers, it would just cost way to much and we might be struggling to fill them as it is.

Correct the world has not stood sill during the long F35 road, but the weapons being developed more recently will enable the F35 to match anything else out there. Its a 2 way relationship, they F35 can make use of excellent weapons and the weapons can make use of the excellent sensors on board the F35 which should be a potent combination for being to able to see the target first, and strike from further away.

[Gabriele]

When talking about long delays one should always remember that they are relative to dramatically over-optimistic assumptions in which the computers would get everything right at the first try. That is the one thing wrong about the F-35.

In real terms, the long delays are perfectly in line with the time which passed between first flight and entry in service for F-22, Typhoon, Rafale etcetera. All those had lower capabilities at IOC (some dramatically so) and could only do air to air, and of them only Rafale had a naval variant.

[ArmChairCivvy]

This point is so underplayed "I think we do have an F22 equivalent in typhoon, which will have excellent stand of weapon capabilities soon surpassing that of the F22, "
- not taking any stand on the stealth and sensor differences
- it is not a coincidence that Japan has chosen to co-operate on the Meteor (name another co-operation project that is not with the U.S.)

PS They wanted to buy the F22, but "had to" buy the F35 instead
PPS So now trying to close the gap

[shark bait]

When talking about long delays one should always remember that they are relative to dramatically over-optimistic assumptions in which the computers would get everything right at the first try. That is the one thing wrong about the F-35.

In real terms, the long delays are perfectly in line with the time which passed between first flight and entry in service for F-22, Typhoon, Rafale etcetera. All those had lower capabilities at IOC (some dramatically so) and could only do air to air, and of them only Rafale had a naval variant.

Perfectly in line with other projects.......but massive off what LM set out to do. That what makes them such an easy target. What kind of idiots on the program set out looking at all those other projects, analysing their cost and time overruns and went, "meh non of that will apply to us". Of course it will! Developing a world class fighter jet is bloody difficult, so don't pretend everything will go swimmingly, don't pretend it will be in service in 2012 for 60 million. Stop pissing about, admit its hard, thing will go wrong and build that into your schedule like any sensible project would.

Annoys me they can bullshit their way though politicians with this crap, and they sit there and lap it up thinking their doing a great job, knowing full well they wont be there do deal will the fall out in 10 years time. The system is fucked.

[Tony Williams]

The system is fucked.

I think that all of the debates about problems with procurement programmes can be summed up in that sentence.

[Little J]

Think LM should have known better, considering how well the F-22 project went.

But I also think they've done a good job of getting 3 versions of the same basic airframe to work - I do wonder however, if it would have been better to use 3 different airframes (designed just for that task) but all using common systems and (where possible) engines, etc.

[ArmChairCivvy]

And further, to SB and TW, if you can manage to bull shit politicos on the Capitol Hill, the law of numbers (economies of scale plus the number of tax payers whose pockets are being emptied) means that regardless of how many times the likes of Saab and Dassault get it "right" - rather than wrong, which seems to be the assumption - they are still fcuk'ed, just like the quote says above.
- the Soviets, turned into Russians (once again) managed to survive a decade with no cash coming in because they had divided the design bureaus and manufacturing

[Lugzy]

@shark bait , I think my main concern is that the f-35 might need a partner aircraft whether it's the f-22 in the U.S. Or a typhoon in the UK to fulfil a mission , is this really what we wanted ? I thought the UK wanted a first rate highly advanced strike/combat aircraft which could do either mission on its own ,
A aircraft which could take on the best fighter jets out there in air combat and win plus penetrate highly defended airspace protected by advanced anti air missile systems and strike targets with a higher success rate than anything that went before , the 1.500b dollar and counting price tag should of give us that in my opinion but I don't see it in the f-35b .

I'd argue did the USAF Really need or want the f-35A ?, what I stated above in mission capabilities could of been achieved by the f-22 , yes they are pricey but I wonder how many aircraft could of been built for the price of the f-35 program ?

I agree the software which the f-35 incorporates is far ahead of anything the f-15s, F-16s, typhoons etc has but it's been mentioned before couldn't that of been injected into the latest designs of these aircraft ? And saved billions ?
from what I've read the USN would of been happy with a new f18 variant for its carriers and is getting the f-35c through default ,

it just seems that defence companies in the U.S. Seen the opportunity to turn a USMC request for a harrier replacement in to a money burning jack of all trades multi service procurement wet dream .
Time will tell if the f-35 will do what it says on the tin , as I said before I really do hope it does .

[Tony Williams]

If you want a good laugh (plus maybe a wince or two at how close to the truth it gets) this satirical blog post takes the piss out of the USAF procurement process: http://fredoneverything.net/RabidBat.shtml

[Lugzy]

If you want a good laugh (plus maybe a wince or two at how close to the truth it gets) this satirical blog post takes the piss out of the USAF procurement process: http://fredoneverything.net/RabidBat.shtml

I think the post hits the nail right on the head and sums up what as been said by members here . It did indeed make me laugh though
Thanks for posting Tony .

[shark bait]

I'd argue did the USAF Really need or want the f-35A ?, what I stated above in mission capabilities could of been achieved by the f-22 , yes they are pricey but I wonder how many aircraft could of been built for the price of the f-35 program ?

Whilst that is true of the F22, it cant be launched from our carriers. The F35 may not be the absolute perfect aircraft for the USAF, but I think we get a much better deal from the aircraft. As a replacement for harrier it is light years ahead, and as a replacement for tornado it is still a massive increase in capability.

I think both the F35 and typhoon will both be our go anywhere and do anything aircraft. I would say for most missions they will excel on their own, and when needed they should be able to work together and preform very well. No matter how great your system it will always have a weakness, and you will need a provision to cover that. Our jets should compliment each other very well, one has stealth where the other doesn't, one is fast and hyper manoeuvrable where the other isn't, and I guess many more synergies will be developed once they get use to operating both.

So I think I am generally more optimistic about the end result than you, and the UK is very well placed to benefit from it all

it just seems that defence companies in the U.S. Seen the opportunity to turn a USMC request for a harrier replacement in to a money burning jack of all trades multi service procurement wet dream .
Time will tell if the f-35 will do what it says on the tin , as I said before I really do hope it does .

I think that is a pretty good assessment of the program. Made me laugh. At least its what we required!

[Foxbat]

Our jets should compliment each other very well, one has stealth where the other doesn't, one is fast and hyper manoeuvrable where the other isn't, and I guess many more synergies will be developed once they get use to operating both.

I actually think that's one of the more exiting things coming in the next few years. Individually Typhoon and F-35 are excellent aircraft with strengths in different areas (Typhoon is an excellent missile truck and air superiority fighter whilst F-35 has stealth and better sensors) but it's the synergies you can get by combining the two platforms that I think is interesting and potentially devastating to adversary's.

For instance you could have F-35 snooping around the skies relatively close to enemy airspace taking advantage of it's stealth and passive sensors whilst Typhoon loiters further away carrying bags of Meteor missiles and launches using information gathered by the F-35. I believe the USAF and RAF have been doing stuff not dissimilar to this during Red Flag using Typhoons and F-22s. Plus you could have a similar scenario for ground attacks. Typhoons carrying Storm Shadow being cued by F-35s closer to the action.

The combined potential of F-35 and Typhoon is, for me, absolutely huge.

[Lugzy]

@shark , I do see were your coming from , combined strike packages is the future and as you said this way we would get the most out of our assets but as discussed before I see f-35b + taranis or son of (hopefully a carrier launched version) , Being our carriers main striking punch in the decades to come.

Ps , It's a shame typhoon can't be launched from our carriers either lol .

On another note , A interesting look inside the cockpit simulator of our f-35bs , interesting how high the pilot sits inside the cockpit . Can't understand why test pilots have stated there are blind spots . Or was that anti f-35 rumours not sure lol

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ng-on.html

[Jdam]

The problem with half of the anti F-35 stuff is that its cherry picked rubbish, I have problems with the aircraft but most of that is the UK governments unwillingness to integrate some of our weapons into it, not really a fault of the program. The truth for the UK is that it is a Harrier/Tornado replacement and it will be a very good one at that.

[Lugzy]

To be fair regarding my blind spot comment , it was reported by test pilots a few years ago and there are a few articles on the net about that issue , but tbh now the new gen 3 helmets are becoming available even if they are reported to cost around 400,000 dollars each , the vision/blind spot problem isn't really a issue anymore .

[Jdam]

My comments weren't targeted at anyone btw I'm just getting annoyed at all the doom and gloom reports about the F-35 every 2nd day.

[cockneyjock1974]

My comments weren't targeted at anyone btw I'm just getting annoyed at all the doom and gloom reports about the F-35 every 2nd day.

Ditto!