F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

[SW1]

ACC

Not forgetting of course we have a number of storm shadow for first day strikes as well. But ultimately missiles aren’t the problem it’s all the other bits that support such a strike that will limit uk numbers here.

Amraam will ultimately be the air to air weapon of choice as the limited history of air combat since the gulf war shows even in closer engagements missile range matters.

For the UK the only real requirement for f35 is an a/c to operate from a carrier the numbers for the uk to achieve that are already ordered so I wouldn’t be expecting future orders.

[ArmChairCivvy]

ultimately missiles aren’t the problem it’s all the other bits that support such a strike that will limit uk numbers here.

I agree with your closing statement (out to the mid-20's).

As for the quote, it summarises why I did not include the 4th gen Tiffies (RCS)
carrying massive cruise missiles under the wing (RCS increased massively)
, also increasing drag (giving rise to a hefty range penalty, esp. w/o conformals)
, and thereby necessitating AAR, ie. having very stealthy tankers in close vicinity of the area of Ops.

[SW1]

Acc

The term Gens are really a marketing tool that have become cool. Typhoon is and will remain capable of being able to attack targets with stand off weapons.

Low observable aircraft have positives and negatives with there use and tactics of how there used and against what dectection systems.

The force package will constructed depending on want we want to do. There maybe sensors and systems we’d like to add and change how things are done but there’s always more than one way to skin a cat.

Yes large stores burn fuel to carry and flight profiles change it further! and profiles increase. But we’ve always planned as such and will continue to do so. But the intelligence gathering and planning of standoff strikes will I believe ultimately limit the Uks capability in this area out side of allied operations.

Typhoon does have the option of 1800ltr fuel tank so that would negate to some point the absolute need for conformal tanks I still think they should come.

Personally I would like to see project tempest further develop typhoon along the lines of what was proposed by beoing on both f15 and 18 before a new airframe is developed as there is plenty of things that can be done to the airframe and plenty of global partners to work with.

[Gabriele]

Both ASRAAM and the AIM-9X have a lock on after launch capability so can be launched form an internal weapons bay if needed.

They do, but they have the same problem that Brimstone has: they are rail launched. AMRAAM and Meteor are ejected before their rocket fires, ASRAAM no. You could adapt the weapon bay door station, as it pushes the missile out and could be easily adapted: but when would you ever want to carry ASRAAM rather than AMRAAM and then Meteor...?
Otherwise you need a "trapeze" or anyway an extensible rail that pushes the missile out of the bay and into the air flow, so its rocket can ignite and push it away. This is what happens in the Sidewinder bays on the F-22, which have extensible rails.

The trapeze and modified door rail were a thing when internal ASRAAM was a requirement, but it was dropped as it was more trouble than it was worth.

[Lord Jim]

Agreed, I was just pointing out their capabilities, in this case the issue is really with the launch platform. The launch bays on the F-22s are quite large for just one AIM-9X. If the launch rails on the F-35 are as advertised and don't compromise its RCS then the problem is solved but I also think that the F-35 will not want to get into any WVR engagements as it loses many of its advantages. This is where the lack of an internal guns joins the argument.

[Little J]

If needed could ASRAAM/AIM-9 be modified to ejector launch? Or would a complete new design be easier?

[Lord Jim]

Why is it that the door rails in the F-35 cannot launch a ASRAAM? I can understand the dimensions of the AIM-9 being an issue but if both AMRAAM and ASRAAM can be launched from the same underwing rails, how is it internal door rails so different?

[ArmChairCivvy]

As with the hurried declaring of IOCs by the first two US services (to secure funding for further batches of a/c), it now seems (for the same reason) that Category I problems are disappearing from the prgrm without fixes to them:

"Category I deficiencies, meaning they "may cause death, severe injury, or severe occupational illness; may cause loss or major damage to a weapon system; critically restrict the combat readiness capabilities of the using organization; or result in a production line stoppage."

Details: https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2018/0 ... roops.html

[SW1]

LJ

AMRAAM is an ejected store it is not rail launched. All bay stores including from the door need to be ejected to free stream to avoid the store impacting the airframe.

[ArmChairCivvy]

For this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... -test.html
they would need a heftier spring (or more CO2... whatever the way is for ejecting, as opposed to free-fall)

[Dave]

As with the hurried declaring of IOCs by the first two US services (to secure funding for further batches of a/c), it now seems (for the same reason) that Category I problems are disappearing from the prgrm without fixes to them:

"Category I deficiencies, meaning they "may cause death, severe injury, or severe occupational illness; may cause loss or major damage to a weapon system; critically restrict the combat readiness capabilities of the using organization; or result in a production line stoppage."

Details: https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2018/0 ... roops.html

The examples given don’t sound all that serious (being procedural rather than aircraft specific faults) or don’t even apply to the majority of current F35’s...

Some of the problems downgraded by the review board from Category I deficiencies to Category II, according to POGO, include:

A problem with a transponder that doesn't automatically send an emergency signal when a pilot ejects. That means hours could pass before anyone knew a pilot had ejected and crashed.

A problem with the arresting tailhook on the Air Force variant of the F-35. Test engineers found the aircraft could be damaged when the tailhook was used in the event of brake failure due to a problem called "upswing."

F-35 pilots firing precision-guided missiles don't currently confirm target coordinates, which could put troops on the ground at risk of being hit by friendly fire.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Yes, I find the whole thing puzzling:

First, look at definition for Cat I
Then, there were 111 of them at the start of the year.
Now, with the 19 gone (without fixes, but rather being reclassified... from the examples - the 3 of them - that would sound right, though)

The beef: howabout the others... quite a few?

[Timmymagic]

For this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... -test.html
they would need a heftier spring (or more CO2... whatever the way is for ejecting, as opposed to free-fall)

Tornado F2 and F3 had Frazer Nash powered rams to push Sky Flash away from the aircraft when launched from the semi-conformal stations.

[Lord Jim]

LJ

AMRAAM is an ejected store it is not rail launched. All bay stores including from the door need to be ejected to free stream to avoid the store impacting the airframe.

OK it got confused by people talking about door mounted launch rails. As pointed out adapting ASRAAM to be compatible with this launch method is probable more trouble than it is worth and as the AIM-120 is going to be its primary A2A weapon this is not an issue. For day one strikes the F-35 would be as clean as possible anyhow so would carry any external weapons and if the wing mounted launch rails are as advertised the plane would still be fairly low vis with them fitted.

[Opinion3]

Other than the carrier based priority I'd like to see our resources using the F35 for EW. It seems to be a suitable platform for this and one than the Europeans and RAF/RN aren't particularly strong on.

Maybe something the Marine Corp are still thinking about too.

[Lord Jim]

All three services in the US are looking to the F-35 as a EW platform, albite one that carries out this rile at he same time as conduction other missions. The much vaunted "Sensor fusion" the F-35 has is the great enabler in this. Whether the RAF/FAA are able to realise this potential is a different matter, though unlike our American Cousins we have stayed away from dedicated EW platforms except those used for training purposes.

[NickC]

The US DOD DOT&E Director Behler has delayed start of the F-35 operational testing with the 23 aircraft which was planned to start this month due to software problems. The current software release 30R00 contains deficiencies with regard to the Air-to-Air Range Infrastructure system and was only sufficient for involving two-ship missions taking on low-end threats. Behler said “Software version 30R02, which is fielding in the next two months, provides the latest instantiation of operationally relevant and production representative aircraft software that will better support the required testing to adequately address the remaining mission areas” strategic attack/air interdiction, offensive counter air, destruction and/or suppression of enemy air defences and electronic attack.

Operational testing in 2017 was planned for early 2018, now completion may slip to 2020 as expected to take one year, According to US statute, a program may not proceed beyond low-rate initial production into full-rate production until initial operational test and evaluation is completed and DOT&E has submitted to the US Secretary of Defense and the congressional defense committees a report that analyzes the results of operational testing.

From <https://www.defensenews.com/air/2018/09 ... -delivers/>

[ArmChairCivvy]

The current software release 30R00 contains deficiencies with regard to the Air-to-Air ... and was only sufficient for involving two-ship missions taking on low-end threats. Behler said “Software version 30R02, which is fielding in the next two months, provides the latest instantiation of operationally relevant and production representative aircraft software that will better support... the remaining mission areas” strategic attack/air interdiction, offensive counter air, destruction and/or suppression of enemy air defences and electronic attack.

Operational testing in 2017 was planned for early 2018, now completion may slip to 2020 as expected to take one year, According to US statute, a program may not proceed beyond low-rate initial production into full-rate production until ... WELL, IT WORKS AS SPECCED

Adapted from <https://www.defensenews.com/air/2018/09 ... -delivers/>

... I can see some fanbois around Europe (some were texting back from last year's Xmas parties, to protest this kind of views being put forward) ripping their tunic and starting with the ashes. Hold on! The fielding in two month's time might save this year's Staff Xmas Party

[Lord Jim]

I wonder how much input the US had in Israel using their F-35s in Syria? Idi they encourage them to do so? Or has Israel found a work around that made their more combat ready, probably by deciding some things were not necessary for the job in hand. Would be interesting to find out but being the IAF is involved pretty much no chance of anything being revealed.

[NickC]

My limited understanding is that IAF were not satisfied with the standard F-35 kit and software resulting from their experience as the most battle tested air force and had the political strength in Washington to allow them to fit their own kit and modify the software as required to meet their own standard in the F-35I, the one and only country allowed to.

[bobp]

Some up to date information regarding the upcoming tests of the F35B this autumn....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... abeth.html

[ArmChairCivvy]

There is huge value in what is about to be started:
"Since June, the team has focused on live flying workups refreshing their skills on day and night field carrier landing practices, ski jump takeoffs and vertical landings. The team also conducted rolling vertical landings in preparation for another unique British development.

“[Rolling vertical landings] are an important phase of the workups because another unique aspect of going to the Queen Elizabeth Class carrier is that we will be conducting experimental testing of a novel recovery landing technique—the Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing,” Edgell said.

The Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing (SRVL) is a British endeavor—a capability at least a decade in the making—that will allow pilots to return to ship with more stores on the aircraft after a mission, Atkinson explained.

“SRVL tests are truly experimental,” Edgell said. “It involves landing a fast jet onto an aircraft carrier with forward relative speed but without the braking assistance typically provided by an arresting gear and hook. It’s going to be a really rewarding moment for British aviation to watch that procedure actually take place.” ["]

However, as for the a/c and its systems, as for VFM, the US test prgrm is addressing, with 23 a/c dedicated and planned to complete some time in 2020:
" instantiation of operationally relevant and production representative aircraft software that will better support... the remaining mission areas[:] strategic attack/air interdiction, offensive counter air, destruction and/or suppression of enemy air defences and electronic attack."

[NickC]

The MOD six months update to the HCDC on F-35B just released.

Costs - a few quotes

"Spend around an additional £1.1 billion of our assigned budget on capability development and upgrades, enhanced reprogramming capability and sustainment. "[a big figure and no breakdown given which HCDC should question, would be of interest to know cost of upgrades]

"First two aircraft in LRIP Lot 3 was $161 million each
The LRIP Lot 10 price ($122.3 million) covers airframe and engine only and does not include cost of UK unique elements, estimated at $2 million per aircraft.
Lot 11, which comprises the latest order placed on contract and representing the single aircraft to be delivered in 2019, is confirmed following contract award we anticipate a continued trend of cost reduction
The US Joint Program Office (JPO) is in negotiations for Lots 12, 13 and 14, which are combined into a single contract, in which we expect to see further reductions in aircraft price."

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/MOD ... on_F35.pdf

[Ron5]

The MOD six months update to the HCDC on F-35B just released.

Costs - a few quotes

"Spend around an additional £1.1 billion of our assigned budget on capability development and upgrades, enhanced reprogramming capability and sustainment. "[a big figure and no breakdown given which HCDC should question, would be of interest to know cost of upgrades]

"First two aircraft in LRIP Lot 3 was $161 million each
The LRIP Lot 10 price ($122.3 million) covers airframe and engine only and does not include cost of UK unique elements, estimated at $2 million per aircraft.
Lot 11, which comprises the latest order placed on contract and representing the single aircraft to be delivered in 2019, is confirmed following contract award we anticipate a continued trend of cost reduction
The US Joint Program Office (JPO) is in negotiations for Lots 12, 13 and 14, which are combined into a single contract, in which we expect to see further reductions in aircraft price."

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/MOD ... on_F35.pdf

You missed one:

"The UK F-35 Programme continues to be delivered on time and within budget"

[Ron5]

Also from the recently published (Sept 6, 2018) MoD's Annual Finance and Economics Bulletin:

Lightning II is under-budget: forecast cost has decreased by £210m since 2016.