F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

[topman]

Squadrons are the only metric worth considering. Ultimately, how many you have to deploy and how long you can sustain them on an enduring operation depends on how many squadrons you have of a given type.

If that is the definition you want to use then the key factor is the amount of PEPs you buy, not aircraft, pilots or Sqns.

Be interesting to see how many PEPs are bought, of what scale and the actual replen rate is. Probably no where near enough no doubt.

[Lord Jim]

The number of squadrons has little to do with how many aircraft you can deploy on operations, the RAF has been pooling assets for the Wings deployed at individual bases for decades. What I have proposed is that the F-35B are allocated to the carriers are the first priority, but available for other operations if not needed on said carrier. This means the UK still has a fifth generation platform, just that the RAF has to allow for its use on the carriers rather than being able to do with them as they wish. The RAF would lose some funding as well to help support the running costs of the F-35s. So there is no fifth generation gap and the RAF has to wait until the next platform comes along to get its bespoke Tornado replacement. Whether the UK ever has more than 50 F-35s in service at any given time is another discussion.

[Ron5]

Wouldn't Tempest make an F-35A buy less likely?

I thought you were of the view that Tempest is a faux project, merely a slide of hand and merger of Typhoon upgrade budgets and other small pots of money masquerading as a future fighter programme...so no, it won't affect the speculative "A" buy...

In all seriousness, isn't the commitment to buy 138 F35s more likely to restrict funds available for Tempest?

Excellent mon ami, tres bien!!!

[Ron5]

Squadrons are the only metric worth considering. Ultimately, how many you have to deploy and how long you can sustain them on an enduring operation depends on how many squadrons you have of a given type.

If that is the definition you want to use then the key factor is the amount of PEPs you buy, not aircraft, pilots or Sqns.

Be interesting to see how many PEPs are bought, of what scale and the actual replen rate is. Probably no where near enough no doubt.

I came up with about half a dozen PEP acronym's, none of which seemed to apply here. Google gave me another 500 or so. Yikes.

So is an RAF PEP the same as a Royal Navy PEP? and how much do they run? can we chip in and buy a few for the QE?

[indeid]

I came up with about half a dozen PEP acronym's, none of which seemed to apply here. Google gave me another 500 or so. Yikes.

So is an RAF PEP the same as a Royal Navy PEP? and how much do they run? can we chip in and buy a few for the QE?

Logistics wins wars.......

Priming Equipment Pack.

[Caribbean]

8 F35 squadrons? That seems very optimistic....

I'm always an optimist

[Lord Jim]

Well we could form 8 squadrons, though each would have say six aircraft in its books, but few would notice simply accepting we have 8 squadrons. May sound daft but remember at one time each RAF squadron has 16 aircraft.

[benny14]

Well we could form 8 squadrons, though each would have say six aircraft in its books, but few would notice simply accepting we have 8 squadrons. May sound daft but remember at one time each RAF squadron has 16 aircraft.

Yes it does sound daft. It will only look good to the un-educated public, anyone with half a clue or the ability to use google will laugh.

[topman]

Squadrons are the only metric worth considering. Ultimately, how many you have to deploy and how long you can sustain them on an enduring operation depends on how many squadrons you have of a given type.

If that is the definition you want to use then the key factor is the amount of PEPs you buy, not aircraft, pilots or Sqns.

Be interesting to see how many PEPs are bought, of what scale and the actual replen rate is. Probably no where near enough no doubt.

I came up with about half a dozen PEP acronym's, none of which seemed to apply here. Google gave me another 500 or so. Yikes.

So is an RAF PEP the same as a Royal Navy PEP? and how much do they run? can we chip in and buy a few for the QE?

Priming equipment pack, it's the spares pack you take with you on exercise /deployment. They are scaled 4/6/8 aircraft sized, you can have more than one.
They are a predetermined list of spares that have been budgeted for and you can take the hit on when a sqn deploys away from it's MOB. Nearly always a limiting factor when coming to deployments, because they are expensive to build up to the correct level and keep there.

[downsizer]

Number of Sqns is fan boi wank material.

What matters is the number of aircraft, FE@R, engineers, pilots, and spares. You could have 1 massive squadron or 15 small. Makes zero difference to deployability in reality.

[Caribbean]

Well we could form 8 squadrons, though each would have say six aircraft in its books, but few would notice simply accepting we have 8 squadrons. May sound daft but remember at one time each RAF squadron has 16 aircraft.

Wasn't there a suggestion, at the time that the two extra squadrons of Typhoon were announced, that squadrons would be "around 12", with 10 being quoted as "normal" availability? It really wouldn't surprise me if "normal" for F-35 squadrons was effectively 8 aircraft in service and 4 in various stages of maintenance (unless F-35 reliability is significantly improved, that is). Technically part of the squadron, but actually elsewhere and only available if a push was needed.

[Lord Jim]

It is the same brick wall as Army cap badges, certain squadron numbers have too much tradition attached. Maybe we should follow the French with the Wing having effectively a historical squadron shields and the smaller associated squadrons also having them. In essence at Lossiemouth you would have two "Wings", each of three "Squadrons", each with six aircraft, but the Wing is where the administration and support functions are located and controlled from. That would give Lossiemouth eight squadron shields to hang on the wall of the Officer's Mess.

[Gabriele]

What matters is the number of aircraft, FE@R, engineers, pilots, and spares. You could have 1 massive squadron or 15 small. Makes zero difference to deployability in reality.

That's if the RAF itself no longer attaches any hard number to a squadron, otherwise pilots, engineers and spares should all be a function of the squadrons. If it literally no longer means anything, that's a UK problem.

Did it become too embarrassing to have any understandable metric for those voices, and so every unit size became a deliberately vague non-data?

[downsizer]

What matters is the number of aircraft, FE@R, engineers, pilots, and spares. You could have 1 massive squadron or 15 small. Makes zero difference to deployability in reality.

That's if the RAF itself no longer attaches any hard number to a squadron, otherwise pilots, engineers and spares should all be a function of the squadrons. If it literally no longer means anything, that's a UK problem.

Did it become too embarrassing to have any understandable metric for those voices, and so every unit size became a deliberately vague non-data?

What I'm saying is the really important things are those that I listed before. Without those figures the number of Sqns is a total irrelevance.

[Caribbean]

At the end of the day, isn't sortie generation rate the real measure of capability (into which all the others feed, obviously)? The organisational aspects are largely irrelevant, except where they affect efficiency and thus the ability to get an aircraft in the air.

[Pseudo]

At the end of the day, isn't sortie generation rate the real measure of capability (into which all the others feed, obviously)? The organisational aspects are largely irrelevant, except where they affect efficiency and thus the ability to get an aircraft in the air.

I'd say that range and payload are important measures too. Don't get me wrong, I think that the CVF is by far the best solution for the UK given our budget, but let's not pretend that it isn't a decision driven by such considerations.

[AndyC]

Is a split buy really so daft as long as we don't buy any F-35A until we have enough F-35B to equip both carriers?

If we buy six aircraft a year then by 2030 Air Command will have a total of 84 in service. That should be more then enough to equip four frontline Squadrons of twelve aircraft each and the OCU/OEU.

If one carrier operates three frontline Squadrons the other could operate the remaining one plus additional ASW/AEW helicopters.

In this situation would we rather have a fifth F-35B Squadron or a first F-35A one?

If F-35s numbered 85-138 were F-35As that would be enough to equip two frontline Squadrons and the Falklands Flight. Ordered at six per year this would complete the total 138 order in 2039.

A year later the new Tempest(!) would enter service and start to replace the remaining Typhoons.

[SKB]

[RichardIC]

Is a split buy really so daft as long as we don't buy any F-35A until we have enough F-35B to equip both carriers?

Yeah, yeah it really is.

Your hypothesis is based on the assumption that the total UK buy will be 138 aircraft. No-one on the entire Planet Earth believes that will really happen.

I will eat my dog if it does.

[jimthelad]

I would prefer if you didn't.

[Scimitar54]

Nothin wrong with a Hot-dog

[Gabriele]

In this situation would we rather have a fifth F-35B Squadron or a first F-35A one?

A fifth squadron of B, definitely. Singletons are never really really useful. The output would be too sporadic to matter much.

There are better ways to put into service two bomb bays 14 inches longer than the B's ones. A UCAV, for example. If government and RAF made up their mind about what, if anything, they plan to do about FCAS with or without France, that would be great.

[Lord Jim]

IF we get four frontline F-35B squadron and an OCU/OEU I will be surprised. I can see the UK only ever having three frontline squadrons plus OCU with 41 Sqn being a joint Typhoon/F-35 OEU. Add to that around 30 F-35s in storage to maintain and manage the fleet and provide attrition replacements and that will be about it. We will run the Typhoons for as long as they can get airborne and we will not see F-25s down in the Falklands as they are not needed, the Typhoons being more than enough to do the job. We will have to wait for whatever is the result of "Tempest" to get a Typhoon replacement, which will probably dictate that this will, though being a swing role platform, be aimed more at A2A than A2G. There will be lots of aspirational talk about F-35 numbers etc. but almost every other nation that is part of the F-35 programme has cut the number of airframes it will actually purchase and I cannot see the UK being any different. The constant declaration that we a still intending to buy 138 planes has more to do with preventing the US from reducing our workshare that anything else.

[S M H]

IF we get four frontline F-35B squadron and an OCU/OEU I will be surprised. I can see the UK only ever having three frontline squadrons plus OCU with 41 Sqn being a joint Typhoon/F-35 OEU. Add to that around 30 F-35s in storage to maintain and manage the fleet and provide attrition replacements and that will be about it.

I would expect two R.N. and two R.A.F. badged squodrons. with a R.A.F. badged O.C.U, with 8 airframes. Your storage numbers would be about right. The question is the numbers of airframes per squadron if 12 we will purchase about 90. The 138 purchase maybe to cover late purchases to avoid reconstruction costs of the aircraft carriers. Extending the in service life of the F35b .

[Timmymagic]

There are better ways to put into service two bomb bays 14 inches longer than the B's ones. A UCAV, for example. If government and RAF made up their mind about what, if anything, they plan to do about FCAS with or without France, that would be great.

And are there any UK weapons that will use that additional space? Only PWII and EPWIII need the extra space and they'll not be around for that much longer.