F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

[Jdam]

If anyone was watching the defence committee meeting today on future ASM. They said the F-35 is going to get the future joint UK-French ASM. So we are going to have to wait until the 2030s until we have dedicated air-launched ASM...

Also seems that the P8 is not getting Harpoons, I think we might be sharing with allies for now.

One of the nice things about the F-35 program is that everybody's aircraft will operated everybody's weapons. So if any ASM is qualified on any country's F-35B (and I haven't kept up enough to know if any are in plan), then all it needs is a UOR to buy some of those missiles, train the pilots, and bombs away.

Isn't the Joint Strike missile getting both internal and external integration, wouldn't that be a good ASM?

[ArmChairCivvy]

One of the nice things about the F-35 program is that everybody's aircraft will operated everybody's weapons. So if any ASM is qualified on any country's F-35B (and I haven't kept up enough to know if any are in plan), then all it needs is a UOR to buy some of those missiles, train the pilots, and bombs away.

Isn't the Joint Strike missile getting both internal and external integration

2.0 is very fashionable speak these days, but with 4.2 (wrong big figure, I still see the "joke" in it - but that's just me) everybody's F-35 will only operate everybody's weapons IF that 2nd everybody pays for the integration
- now, anyone can google how much money, in all, is involved in 4.2
- it tends to double every 6 months (the last two I bothered to dig up were $4 bn and $ 8bn)
- so everybody flying F-35s will get (integration for free!) those weapons that the US services have chosen
Do I need to ask where they all will be made? Trump was a bit dum-dum in criticising the prgrm in his early days... he has finally understood what it is all about. And kept (uncharacteristically) quiet

Jdam: Norway* and Oz are paying for internal JSM on F-35As
- add B (will not fit internally) and C... have not seen any specifics on this side of things. Allegedly the code line is inseparable, though/ while the parts commonality claims have been halved (between the versions: from c. 70 to c. 30%)

~~~~~~~~
* Norway forced Pentagon to be a party with a nominal $20 mln payment, so that the agreement gained state-to-state status (and LM can't do their normal tricks, not to mention renegeding on the whole thing) as a condition for signing for their 52 F-35s

[Ron5]

I am not sure what you are saying but if country A pays for integration of a weapon, that integration becomes part and parcel of every other country's aircraft. No additional fees.

So the USMC can use ASRAAMs and Meteor. The RN can use AMRAAMs and JDAMS. At no additional integration charge.

I'm not surprised if the Norwegian NSM is a special case, the missile has a shared heritage so integration costs may have been shared between the two countries.

[Lord Jim]

I wonder if the RN is going to have to wait until the 2030s as well for a replacement for Harpoon?

[sunstersun]

I wonder if the RN is going to have to wait until the 2030s as well for a replacement for Harpoon?

I don't know anything in this specific incidence, but based on my limited experience and attempts to learn more about British procurement the answer is a resounding yes.

[Jdam]

I wonder if the RN is going to have to wait until the 2030s as well for a replacement for Harpoon?

Well we just had an 8 year carrier gap

[AndyC]

They postponed OSD for Harpoon 1C from 2018 to 2020 - what would be the point if it's not going to be replaced in 2020?

Also, the P-8 Poseidon is coming into service and should be able to operate the Harpoon II +ER from about 2020.

The obvious solution would be to buy the Harpoon II +ER for both the RN and RAF. http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... sile-24225

[RetroSicotte]

They postponed OSD for Harpoon 1C from 2018 to 2020 - what would be the point if it's not going to be replaced in 2020?

Because in 2020 they'll have Sea Venom and can say they are "investing in cutting edge anti-ship missiles to support our growing defence budget" to fob off questions about an essential capability being cut.

Without pushing it to 2020 they'd have had a 2 year gap when they'd have no defence against accusations of "no anti-ship missiles" in PM questions and committee inquiries.

[Timmymagic]

AIM-120Ds? That's a nice surprise. Big upgrade for the UKs AMRAAM use right there. The D model is a gigantic upgrade over the C.

The announcement is in the below story here:

http://alert5.com/2018/07/11/u-k-cleare ... aim-120ds/

Seems like a sensible purchase. It addresses the gap until Meteor is available on F-35B (realistically 2025), replaces the ex-FAA AIM-120B's that have long since been retired, gives the Typhoon T1's a top end missile capability until they leave service.

The only question to be answered is if the C-5's that we already have go ahead with the mooted re-lifing to get them out to the end of the T1's lifespan.

Possible problems are: Possible reduction in numbers of Meteor bought, no re-lifing of the C-5's or even....integration of Meteor to F-35 is put back further or even...shudder...cancelled....which would be a massive, criminal mistake. Hopefully the first and latter points are moot given the contracts already awarded to MBDA.

The good news is that the UK seems committed to arming its fighters with top end gear. We've had the best missiles of any airforce in the world with 9L, Skyflash, Amraam, Asraam and soon Meteor since the early 1980's.

[Timmymagic]

They postponed OSD for Harpoon 1C from 2018 to 2020 - what would be the point if it's not going to be replaced in 2020?

Also, the P-8 Poseidon is coming into service and should be able to operate the Harpoon II +ER from about 2020.

The obvious solution would be to buy the Harpoon II +ER for both the RN and RAF. http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... sile-24225

I've heard 2023 mentioned for Harpoon recently. Not sure how realistic that is though.

Disagree on the obvious solution for the RN and RAF though. The really obvious solution would be to go and speak to the Norgies. They're integrating JSM with the P-8. The smart move for the UK would be for us to do a deal with them. We develop a wing kit for Stingray (which has just been upgraded) and integrate with P-8. That shouldn't be that hard as the P-8's mission system isn't far removed from Nimrod MRA.4. The Norgies are enthusiastic users of Stingray as well. They upgrade theirs with us, we buy JSM for P-8 and F-35 (pylon carried though).
Net result:
- We stay standardised on a superior UK torpedo across all platforms
- One of our closest allies is standardised with us on torps, aircraft and air launched anti ship missiles. Possibility of shared stockpiles.
- Decent bit of business both ways, both purchases could offset the other
- Stingray upgrade is available to other users
- Bonus - F-35 on QE Class gets a decent anti ship capability to boot and a larger standoff munition as its not getting Storm Shadow.

The only way it could get even better is if we integrated it at cost with Typhoon, the Norgies get a wider export market then. In return they could merge JSM/NSM, make the JSM canister launchable...and thats the RN's ASM problem sorted as well.....they're also looking at a Sub-launched NSM/JSM as well....

[RetroSicotte]

Definitely agree on NSM for the F-35 and across the services. It is the only AShM that fits on all of our platforms.

It's already being fitted to Typhoon, no need to pay more.

It's already being fitted to P-8, no need to pay more.

It's already being fitted to F-35, no need to pay more.

It's already been selected for the USN's new AShM, thus benefiting from shared development and scale of production, reduces cost.

It's from a non-US close ally to expand the UKs links and relationships.

It can go in canisters (Type 45) and vertical silos (Type 26), only specific ship fitting cost needed.

It is a no-brainer choice in terms of ease of service-wide integration.

[Timmymagic]

It's already being fitted to Typhoon, no need to pay more.

I know that had been mooted, and some airshow stand had it on, but has it actually happened?

It's already been selected for the USN's new AShM, thus benefiting from shared development and scale of production, reduces cost.

Absolutely, just to note that that is the NSM not the JSM though...not a huge difference. To make it really work perfectly it would good if the Norgies made a canister launched JSM.

t's from a non-US close ally to expand the UKs links and relationships.

Absolutely, they buy British kit, they're one of our main ASW partners, and they'll be doing our F-35 engine work as well.

It can go in canisters (Type 45) and vertical silos (Type 26), only specific ship fitting cost needed.

I've not seen it in VL configuration? Are you sure about that? T-26 has space for canisters behind the second set of CAMM silos so isn't a problem, in fact it would be a bonus leaving more Mk.41 empty for other uses.

The development of a sub-launched encapsulated version would also be a massive benefit. The UK and US both withdrew Sub-Harpoon ages ago....but the US have pulled one out of deep storage and are launching it at RIMPAC 2018 shortly....so there must be some thought going into a return to sub launched ASM. The fact that the Norgies are developing it in encapsulated form as standard is a big benefit as our Astutes are without VL tubes. Any new US missile is likely to be VL launched only.

All in all its the only route that makes any sense whilst delivering capability in so many areas simultaneously. Hell, we could even stick some on a truck at Gib again like we did with Exocet (has anyone actually ever seen any photos of that?).

[RetroSicotte]

I know [NSM on Typhoon] had been mooted, and some airshow stand had it on, but has it actually happened?

Kongsberg stated they want to do it, to help market their missile. Likely due to Typhoon not having an AShM yet. So either way it's got more traction and will from them than otherwise.

I've not seen it in VL configuration? Are you sure about that? T-26 has space for canisters behind the second set of CAMM silos so isn't a problem, in fact it would be a bonus leaving more Mk.41 empty for other uses.

Canisters on Type 26 would be ideal for it.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... l-jsm.html

They at least seem to have already worked on it a bit.

The development of a sub-launched encapsulated version would also be a massive benefit. ... The fact that the Norgies are developing it in encapsulated form as standard is a big benefit as our Astutes are without VL tubes. Any new US missile is likely to be VL launched only.

The oft unspoken one, but yes absolutely. It would turn Astute from lethal into downright hellish to confront in the North Sea, if capable of pushing its reach out that far.

Hell, we could even stick some on a truck at Gib again like we did with Exocet (has anyone actually ever seen any photos of that?).

Hadn't known we ever did, actually! Learn something new every day. Cheeky place to put them. Literally can't exit the Med without coming within range of rock cave fortified AShMs. Unbelievably low priority these days, but an amusing "British supervillain lair defence" thought all the same.

To draw back on topic, essentially yes. The support beyond the F-35 makes it such a perfect choice for the UK, until FC/ASW finally arrives in 2035/36 (because lets face it, it's hardly going to pop into sudden existence in 2030)

[ArmChairCivvy]

The really obvious solution would be to go and speak to the Norgies. They're integrating JSM with the P-8. The smart move for the UK would be for us to do a deal with them. We develop a wing kit for Stingray (which has just been upgraded) and integrate with P-8. That shouldn't be that hard as the P-8's mission system isn't far removed from Nimrod MRA.4. The Norgies are enthusiastic users of Stingray as well. They upgrade theirs with us, we buy JSM for P-8 and F-35 (pylon carried though).
Net result:
- We stay standardised on a superior UK torpedo across all platforms
- One of our closest allies is standardised with us on torps, aircraft and air launched anti ship missiles. Possibility of shared stockpiles.
- Decent bit of business both ways, both purchases could offset the other
- Stingray upgrade is available to other users
- Bonus - F-35 on QE Class gets a decent anti ship capability to boot and a larger standoff munition as its not getting Storm Shadow.

The only way it could get even better is if we integrated it at cost with Typhoon, the Norgies get a wider export market then.

I'll vote for that

It's already being fitted to Typhoon, no need to pay more

+

Likely due to Typhoon not having an AShM yet

I doubt that it is being fitted, but the Tiffies to Kuwait will have AShMs... they are of Italian make, though.

[Timmymagic]

being fitted, but the Tiffies to Kuwait will have AShMs... they are of Italian make, though.

Marte-ER IIRC. Not sure if any of the users would spring for JSM integration, but the Saudi's will usually buy anything and I would have thought that the Germans could make use of it following Kormorant's withdrawal. If only we could get the Saudi's or Qatari's to pay for the integration effort....

[Timmymagic]

Hadn't known we ever did, actually! Learn something new every day. Cheeky place to put them. Literally can't exit the Med without coming within range of rock cave fortified AShMs. Unbelievably low priority these days, but an amusing "British supervillain lair defence" thought all the same.

Yep, apparently it was operational for a number of years in the 80's/mid 90's. Called Excalibur. I think it was a lash up similar to the ones the Argentinians used at the Falklands. Spare ship mounted modules on a trailer or flatbed truck.
Never seem a picture of it ever though...

Errr...back to the F-35...

[benny14]

I wonder if the RN is going to have to wait until the 2030s as well for a replacement for Harpoon?

A couple days ago the Deputy Chief of the Defence Staff for Military Capability said that an interim Harpoon replacement is not funded in the equipment plan. He said that they are looking at options during the concept phase for the future ASM, which is currently only 1 year in to a 3 year concept phase. He said that they could potential use part of the contingency fund, but this would have to be weighed up against other programs. Options he listed were Harpoon Block 2, RBS-15, Exocet Block 3, Otomat, NSM, Tomahawk and LRASM.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Options he listed were Harpoon Block 2, RBS-15, Exocet Block 3, Otomat, NSM, Tomahawk and LRASM.

Of the multi-platform choices we do not use the air-launched weapon that LRASM was derived from so that leaves just the updated Harpoon and NSM/JSM (that share components) as good choices.

[benny14]

Of the multi-platform choices we do not use the air-launched weapon that LRASM was derived from so that leaves just the updated Harpoon and NSM/JSM (that share components) as good choices.

I agree. We wont see a decision on this until 2020-21 at the earliest. Potential that it might be gapped due to no available money, but hopefully not.

Another interesting snippet, the future missile is definitely not going to be submarine launch-able. They also mentioned that they are considering splitting it in to two missiles, one as an ASM, one as a long range strike weapon, due to the wastefulness/cost of using it for both roles.

[ArmChairCivvy]

I have been wondering about these statements (the UK will get 44 F-35s, at best...) where do they come from?

Then I took the £345 mln extra for the software updates (UK share) and the £85m per a/c that the Defence Minister confirmed as the latest price at the same time (in Feb this year) during Parliamentary Q&A, took the calculator from the drawer, got very close to 4 as an answer (dividing), resorted to the higher arithmetics:
the earlier confirmed 48 minus 4 = ah- hah
... but I take it that nothing official has been said (and the budget for all of them is unchanged, at £ 9.2 bn)?

[Timmymagic]

Another interesting snippet, the future missile is definitely not going to be submarine launch-able.

Thats a surprise. I guess the French see no need as they're only just getting MdCN. The UK seems wedded to Tomahawk and replacement.

Lets just hope that they've designed it so it could be made sub-surface at a later date (dimensions wise).

[Lord Jim]

I wouldn't be surprised if the US is making progress on a stealthy TLAM successor. They will probably make it VL only though as they have no need for anything else. The UK is in an awkward position as with the exception of the NSM/JSM, most alternatives are in their final form and have replacement programmes running. Replacing TLAM is not a major issue compared to the RN and RAFs next AShM. We will probably see the TLAM replacement carried on the T-26 rather than the Astutes. The RAF will probably not actually get a new AShM for quite some time as it will be easy to drop it down the priority list with the current funding issues. The only real option would be a limited purchase of NSM for the reasons suggested above to give the RN Carrier some stand off capability against either naval or land targets. We could push the boat out and go for the JSM, using it as a TLAM replacement, but accepting the shorter range. Finally there is the LRASM, but that will be an option for the T-26 and they aren't hitting the water until 2027 at the earliest. WE have got ourselves into a bit of a mess here.

[sunstersun]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... reddit.com

89 mil bois

[ArmChairCivvy]

I wouldn't be surprised if the US is making progress on a stealthy TLAM successor

We could push the boat out and go for the JSM, using it as a TLAM replacement, but accepting the shorter range.

You just ticked the box (that you drew) as it (JSM) is about as stealthy as they come.

[ArmChairCivvy]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... reddit.com

89 mil bois

The deep dive into LM's (and suppliers) costing seems to have produced a result... good. The info reads like a LM press release though.
- how much dearer will the "B" remain ? Half way through to our first 24, the per piece for those being now bought was (in Feb) £ (not $) 85 mil (without the later "extras")

I guess, in this one (the quote is from the same reuters piece) where the package has been priced from ground up and the extras thus included, albeit for "A"s, there is a good reflection of the true cost - as it also from Feb (and the offer must be valid as the deal is in the making):
" In February, the U.S. State Department approved the possible sale of 34 F-35s to Belgium for as much as $6.53 billion. Belgium is due to make a decision on a new fighter later this year. "