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F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.

How do you feel about the F-35B for the RN and RAF? (2 votes per member)

GOOD choice for the Royal Navy
120
44%
BAD choice for the Royal Navy
10
4%
Uncertain (RN)
14
5%
GOOD choice for the Royal Air Force
49
18%
BAD choice for the Royal Air Force
37
14%
Uncertain (RAF)
40
15%
 
Total votes: 270

albedo
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby albedo » 10 Jun 2018, 08:28

sunstersun wrote:When is it going through the mach loop?


Largely OT, but this is why it's so much easier to call it the mach loop (unless you're a local!):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojWz0HnaZ2U

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby seaspear » 10 Jun 2018, 10:13

Little J wrote:
sunstersun wrote:When is it going through the mach loop?


could be fun to go there with a radar gun lol

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby NickC » 11 Jun 2018, 13:55

The major annual June US DOD GAO report on development of F-35, US total acquisition cost, R&D and Procurement, total now estimated at $406B, program was restructured three time since 2001.

Some highlights
1. F-35 development testing completed April, six months slip from last year.
2. Start of Initial Operational Test and Evaluation delayed 7-8 months to Q4 '18 due to slippage in availability of test a/c upgraded to final production standard and completion Q3 '19. Program Office estimates 501 a/c will be procured before IOTE completed.
3. Funding will be under threat from competing programs in near future, B-21, KC-46A and Columbia
4. Program Office working on 'Blueprint for Affordability' to lower production and support costs. Program meeting or close to four of its eight reliability and maintainability targets, the four metrics included in development contract, the other four metrics specified in operational requirement but were not in contract.
5. F-35A closest to full maturity, F-35B and C are less mature, estimated 2021 and 2024 respectively
6. DOD plans to defer resolving some critical deficiencies until after full rate production (77 per year) decision in October 2019 contrary to DOD policy. As of January 2018 111 Cat. 1 and 855 Cat. 2 deficiencies forecast to be outstanding when full production starts, the open deficiencies found in testing will not be resolved within the cost and schedule of development contract, will have to be funded from post development contract.
7. Modernisation of F-35 (Block 4/Continuous Capability Development and Delivery, C2D2), planned contract award slipped to June 2019 to allow another 10 months to wrap up original development contract, estimated cost up to 2022 $3.9B, no figure given for the out years.
8. Labour hours per a/c improving year by year, in 2017 F-35A, 41,541 hrs, B 57,152 hrs , C 60,121 hrs. A pointer to the additional cost of a B compared to an A is that it takes an additional 37.5% manufacturing hours. Another interesting point for discussion raised by these figures is why hours so much higher than WWII a/c, e.g. In 1944 a B-24 Liberator a much heavier a/c required only 14,500 hours and though with much simpler systems had none of the advantages of a 70 plus years in software design for ease of assembly and the development in computerised/robotic production systems.

The two GAO recommendations
1. Resolve all critical deficiencies before making full rate production decision
2. Ensure the F-35 meets reliability and maintainability requirements

GAO-18-321

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby seaspear » 12 Jun 2018, 10:40

sunstersun wrote:Also, an excerpt from the latest Israeli F-35 front.

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/middle- ... 018/06/09/

"According to the newspaper’s investigation, the IAF F-35 “Adir” planes penetrated Iran’s airspace, circled high above Tehran, Karajrak, Isfahan, Shiraz and Bandar Abbas – and photographed Iran’s air defense system.

One of the sources reported that Iran’s air defense system, including its Russian radar, did not detect the entry and exit of the fighter planes, and that Ismaili hid this information from the supreme leader to cover his corps’ failure. However, three weeks ago, Iranian intelligence discovered that the Israeli fighter jets had carried out this sortie as a test of the possibility of an undetected military attack on Iranian outposts and bases, during which they photographed those sensitive bases, evading the Russian S-300 missile system’s radar.

According to Al Jarida, Iranian intelligence received top secret information that the Israeli fighter planes even managed to photograph Iran’s underground bases. Khamenei, who received this information, now suspects a cooperation between Russia and Israel, and that the Russians gave Israel the secret code of the Russian radar in Iran – according to the Kuwaiti newspaper."

No punches pulled eh Israel? IOC, then off to scan Iran's air defence systems.



the flying distance from Tel Aviv to Tehran is reported as 985 miles this is rough not knowing the airport it is alleged to have taken off from the f35a has a range of 1200 nmi on internal fuel certainly the I.A.F has the ability through Elbit to look at ways to carry more fuel without altering stealth profile

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 12 Jun 2018, 16:38

seaspear wrote:certainly the I.A.F has the ability through Elbit to look at ways to carry more fuel without altering stealth profile


Is "certainly" the right word in that; certainly there has been talk about conformals, for a long time, but when you need to make sure that the heads of posidrive (Phillips, for the foreigners) screws are not reflective on radars
... I would like to see a whiff of evidence... just a "whiff"

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whitelancer
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby whitelancer » 12 Jun 2018, 20:43

Why does this sound more like a disinformation campaign!

How many F35s does Israel have?

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby R686 » 12 Jun 2018, 21:35

whitelancer wrote:Why does this sound more like a disinformation campaign!

How many F35s does Israel have?


apparently 9+ but not confirmed.

The Israelis are sneaky buggers they go out side the norm. I doubt they have come up with conformal fuel tank id say they used expandable tanks snuck a sneaky ride in on commercial routes and then once clear used their own AAR assets.

Deception in counter air offensive operations is the name of the game

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whitelancer
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby whitelancer » 12 Jun 2018, 22:43

R686 wrote:apparently 9+ but not confirmed.The Israelis are sneaky buggers they go out side the norm. I doubt they have come up with conformal fuel tank id say they used expandable tanks snuck a sneaky ride in on commercial routes and then once clear used their own AAR assets. Deception in counter air offensive operations is the name of the game


So with 9 or so available they decide to risk one or more swanning about over Iran in order to take a few photos! While I don't doubt they could come up with a way to do so, I do question the purpose. Ask yourself a question if they did do what has been claimed and remained undetected, how come we have heard all about it?

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SKB
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby SKB » 12 Jun 2018, 22:46

Thought this was a UK F-35 thread....?! :eh:

serge750
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby serge750 » 12 Jun 2018, 22:48

Hugh bragging rights for Israel if they did it through.."if you mess with us we will blow stuff up without you knowing where or when..."

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whitelancer
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby whitelancer » 12 Jun 2018, 23:07

Same result if you just make people believe you did it.

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby R686 » 13 Jun 2018, 01:51

whitelancer wrote:
R686 wrote:apparently 9+ but not confirmed. The Israelis are sneaky buggers they go out side the norm. I doubt they have come up with conformal fuel tank id say they used expandable tanks snuck a sneaky ride in on commercial routes and then once clear used their own AAR assets. Deception in counter air offensive operations is the name of the game


So with 9 or so available they decide to risk one or more swanning about over Iran in order to take a few photos! While I don't doubt they could come up with a way to do so, I do question the purpose. Ask yourself a question if they did do what has been claimed and remained undetected, how come we have heard all about it?



I guess we will never really know, thought it was early and a gamble.

The Israel Air Force declared its F-35 fleet operationally capable on December 6, 2017


https://f35.com/news/detail/israel-decl ... at-capable

Defiance
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby Defiance » 13 Jun 2018, 07:07

whitelancer wrote:Same result if you just make people believe you did it.


Indeed, whether you can or can't blow something up isn't the point, so long as the other guy believes you can!

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby seaspear » 13 Jun 2018, 09:31

The National Interest may 25 th article by Sebastien Robin stated that a subsidiary of Elbit was developing non stealthy 425 gallon feul tanks which with pylons would drop off when approaching areas of hostility , further down the I.A.I developing with Lockeed bolt on stealth conformal tanks as an earlier writer alluded too this is something to be involved in . and something the R.N could use to extend the range of its fighters and not bring its carriers close to shore when launching its fighters

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 13 Jun 2018, 10:36

seaspear wrote:Elbit was developing non stealthy 425 gallon feul tanks which with pylons would drop off when approaching areas of hostility , further down the I.A.I developing with Lockeed bolt on stealth conformal tanks


Thanks, a story that has been running for a decade and will surely yield fruit... at some point

Now, the other one is that Israel will come out with a two-seater version, to be able to act as a command and coordination a/c for unmanned assets:
- hands up, anyone believing that one
- even if you left all weapons behind, to gain weight margin, the inners of an F-35 are rather tightly arranged (they did fit the rather bulky lift fan, though :) ; the other crew member's ejection seat would have to be modified to "fire" downwards, however :D )

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 13 Jun 2018, 11:02

The real issue driving the "show of force/ capability" that we have been discussing is the number of rockets/ missiles that Iran has been supplying Hezbollah with (and is now standing up within Syria, as well). Despite Israel having layered defences second to none, you can only deal with "so many".

More likely than stealth fighters putting a few precision missiles into the mullahs' living rooms is that these sorts of things will be loaded on Hercs and the likes en-mass, to take out all the known launch sites simultaneously:
"supersonic Rampage is 15.4ft long, has a weight of 1,250 lb. and boasts a warhead, rocket engine and advanced navigation suite which allow precision striking of high-quality, well-protected targets at a distance of 90 miles. It is a derivate of IMI Systems’ ground-launched guided Extended Range Artillery rocket. Minimal changes have been made to the weapon’s external design for its air-launched role. The missile can operate in any weather conditions, both day and night. It offers simplified operation, with no need for a “man in the loop” and can be carried on a broad range of aircraft. For Israel itself, this could be a valuable capability, particularly in light of its low-level fight against Iran and its proxies, including the Lebanese militant group Hezbollah, in Syria. Israeli jets carrying Rampage missiles could easily hit targets in and around the Syrian capital Damascus from within Israel’s own airspace."
- low-level fights can turn big with not much warning
- the quote above just dropped in, with the DID of today arriving in my inbox

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby R686 » 13 Jun 2018, 12:40

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
seaspear wrote:Elbit was developing non stealthy 425 gallon feul tanks which with pylons would drop off when approaching areas of hostility , further down the I.A.I developing with Lockeed bolt on stealth conformal tanks


Thanks, a story that has been running for a decade and will surely yield fruit... at some point

Now, the other one is that Israel will come out with a two-seater version, to be able to act as a command and coordination a/c for unmanned assets:
- hands up, anyone believing that one
- even if you left all weapons behind, to gain weight margin, the inners of an F-35 are rather tightly arranged (they did fit the rather bulky lift fan, though :) ; the other crew member's ejection seat would have to be modified to "fire" downwards, however :D )



wasn't that the F35B/D extended the cockpit into the lift fan mounting area or something someone came up years ago?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 13 Jun 2018, 15:21

R686 wrote:or something someone came up years ago?


About like that...

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby Ron5 » 13 Jun 2018, 17:04

Nah, the D was the long(er) range F-35A with the F-35C wing. The RAF's wet dream.

Or was that the E?

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby R686 » 13 Jun 2018, 17:13

Ron5 wrote:Nah, the D was the long(er) range F-35A with the F-35C wing. The RAF's wet dream.

Or was that the E?


Sounds like a RAAF F-111C

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 13 Jun 2018, 20:16

R686 wrote:Sounds like a RAAF F-111C


Exactly
... who ever called the a/c "dave" may have been dreaming

The "D"

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby seaspear » 13 Jun 2018, 23:19

And there was the debate of the f35 without the b model

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby sunstersun » 15 Jun 2018, 05:23


SDL
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby SDL » 15 Jun 2018, 12:56

Good that they caught him... but man, that website is a POS... awful trying to read anything.

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Postby NickC » 15 Jun 2018, 14:39

Lockheed have placed order for new DAS for the F-35 to replace the old generation kit on the "5th" generation plane. As yet not developed, though as below claiming twice the performance and five times the reliability, which could be taken as a damming indictment of current DAS used which dates back before 2001 F-35 contract award. It will installed lot 15, that's 2023.

You could make a strong argument that the UK should hold off buying anymore F-35B a/c until its problems sorted, waiting for Block 4 a/c, new computer, radar with SAR slipped from Block 3.6, may be with updated structure strengthened so able to meet its planned 8,000 hours life and with hopefully capability for ASRAAM CSM, SPEAR 3 and Meteor etc.

Otherwise RAF and RN will be forced to maintain different types adding to complexity and more expensive to maintain, complications during heavy maintenance, operating a/c with different capabilities, the decision whether (unlikely) funding available to upgrade older a/c .
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