F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

[shark bait]

I do agree.

[dmereifield]

RE your specific example of Italy and Spain; their ability to actually project that power may be questionable, however the French can, the Americans obviously can, and the Chinese will.

Untill the powers to be fund carrier ops so both carrier are avalible if needed outside of planned maintenance periods and not rotated in and out of service like the Albions I would place the UK as the same power projection capabilty as the Italians.

Power projection is not just about how many aircraft can be placed on a fixed hull, power projection is being able to rotate that capabilty 24/7 and even with only two CV that's questionable, the French certantly can't do it with the one CV. I'd rate the UK as marginal

But, unlike with the Albions, both CVs will be fully crewed and neither will be mothballed, isn't that the plan?

[MRCA]

The RN does not have the manpower to fully man them at the same time. We also not have enough merlin or f35 a/c to be able to rotate to equip both with even say 12 f35 and 16 grey merlin so we can't even replace a deployed carrier in situe with a similar capability. Though we will have spent a cool 15 billion pounds just to acquire 2 ships and 48 fast jets.

The below extracts from the nao report on carrier tells you all you really need to know about this capability

"While the carriers are expected to offer greater exibility in how the Department responds to global events, deploying them will require a signi cant proportion of the Navy’s eet to form the carrier task group. The task group is likely to represent around 27% of the Navy’s fleet by tonnage and 20% of the personnel needed to crew the fleet, depending on how the carriers are deployed. Currently, the Navy carries out multiple operations concurrently using single ships. This means the Navy will need to change fundamentally how it operates and make judgements on priorities."

"The Department has already reduced existing capability in other areas to prioritise Carrier Strike. The decision to operate both carriers means both ships must be crewed. The Department decided not to extend in service HMS Ocean (the Royal Navy’s current agship and helicopter carrier) beyond 2018 in order to provide crew for the second carrier. HMS Ocean underwent maintenance and re t work between 2012 and 2014
to ensure that it could provide a helicopter carrier capability until at least 2019. But it would require signi cant capital investment in a major re t to keep it running beyond that. The Department now plans for the carriers to provide some capacity to support battle eld helicopter operations. However, the necessary changes to the carriers to enable this are yet to be fully funded and will add further work to the CEPP schedule. Also, the Navy’s capability to undertake certain ‘ship to shore amphibious operations’ from 2018 onwards will be reduced."

The Department, by devising this routine operating model, has identi ed that it is impossible to satisfy all demands for CEPP all the time, based on the current level of equipment, budget and personnel planned.

Because of the Commands’ tight nancial position, they have not prioritised funding for some enablers or have delayed funding them until the last possible opportunity. Some enablers remain unfunded and further analysis is ongoing to decide on the requirements and expected cost (Figure 11). The Department advised us that this is normal business

[WhitestElephant]

The RN does not have the manpower to fully man them at the same time. We also not have enough merlin or f35 a/c to be able to rotate to equip both with even say 12 f35 and 16 grey merlin so we can't even replace a deployed carrier in situe with a similar capability. Though we will have spent a cool 15 billion pounds just to acquire 2 ships and 48 fast jets.

The below extracts from the nao report on carrier tells you all you really need to know about this capability

"While the carriers are expected to offer greater exibility in how the Department responds to global events, deploying them will require a signi cant proportion of the Navy’s eet to form the carrier task group. The task group is likely to represent around 27% of the Navy’s fleet by tonnage and 20% of the personnel needed to crew the fleet, depending on how the carriers are deployed. Currently, the Navy carries out multiple operations concurrently using single ships. This means the Navy will need to change fundamentally how it operates and make judgements on priorities."

"The Department has already reduced existing capability in other areas to prioritise Carrier Strike. The decision to operate both carriers means both ships must be crewed. The Department decided not to extend in service HMS Ocean (the Royal Navy’s current agship and helicopter carrier) beyond 2018 in order to provide crew for the second carrier. HMS Ocean underwent maintenance and re t work between 2012 and 2014
to ensure that it could provide a helicopter carrier capability until at least 2019. But it would require signi cant capital investment in a major re t to keep it running beyond that. The Department now plans for the carriers to provide some capacity to support battle eld helicopter operations. However, the necessary changes to the carriers to enable this are yet to be fully funded and will add further work to the CEPP schedule. Also, the Navy’s capability to undertake certain ‘ship to shore amphibious operations’ from 2018 onwards will be reduced."

The Department, by devising this routine operating model, has identi ed that it is impossible to satisfy all demands for CEPP all the time, based on the current level of equipment, budget and personnel planned.

Because of the Commands’ tight nancial position, they have not prioritised funding for some enablers or have delayed funding them until the last possible opportunity. Some enablers remain unfunded and further analysis is ongoing to decide on the requirements and expected cost (Figure 11). The Department advised us that this is normal business

Hello MRCA. Both carriers will be fully manned. The crew of Queen Elizabeth is that of Illustrious decommissioned in 2014, while PoW will be crewed partly from that of Ocean. The rest of PoWs crew comes from the 300 personnel increace and manpower reshuffle to the RN as announced in the 2015 SDSR.

This was confirmed and disscussed further in the House of Lords at the time also. Although I can regretfully no longer find a link to the transcrip. But as mentioned in the Lords, as I remember it, was that the RN would have two fully manned carriers per the arangements made in the 2015 SDSR. Enabling fulltime carrier strike. There will be no extended readiness or one carrier laid up with a skeleton crew.

The 48 F-35s is only the initial plan out to the mid 2020s, for two frontime squadrons. I do agree the governments line of "12 F-35s deployed routinely" is wholly unrealistic during that time frame. Perhaps 6 or 8 will it be practice. But beyond 2025, more jets will be purchased, and more squadrons. It is not unreasonable to expect 4 frontline squadrons c.2030. Enough to routinely fill the decks with many F-35 and Merlins 24/7.

[R686]

The RN does not have the manpower to fully man them at the same time. We also not have enough merlin or f35 a/c to be able to rotate to equip both with even say 12 f35 and 16 grey merlin so we can't even replace a deployed carrier in situe with a similar capability. Though we will have spent a cool 15 billion pounds just to acquire 2 ships and 48 fast jets.

The below extracts from the nao report on carrier tells you all you really need to know about this capability

"While the carriers are expected to offer greater exibility in how the Department responds to global events, deploying them will require a signi cant proportion of the Navy’s eet to form the carrier task group. The task group is likely to represent around 27% of the Navy’s fleet by tonnage and 20% of the personnel needed to crew the fleet, depending on how the carriers are deployed. Currently, the Navy carries out multiple operations concurrently using single ships. This means the Navy will need to change fundamentally how it operates and make judgements on priorities."

"The Department has already reduced existing capability in other areas to prioritise Carrier Strike. The decision to operate both carriers means both ships must be crewed. The Department decided not to extend in service HMS Ocean (the Royal Navy’s current agship and helicopter carrier) beyond 2018 in order to provide crew for the second carrier. HMS Ocean underwent maintenance and re t work between 2012 and 2014
to ensure that it could provide a helicopter carrier capability until at least 2019. But it would require signi cant capital investment in a major re t to keep it running beyond that. The Department now plans for the carriers to provide some capacity to support battle eld helicopter operations. However, the necessary changes to the carriers to enable this are yet to be fully funded and will add further work to the CEPP schedule. Also, the Navy’s capability to undertake certain ‘ship to shore amphibious operations’ from 2018 onwards will be reduced."

The Department, by devising this routine operating model, has identi ed that it is impossible to satisfy all demands for CEPP all the time, based on the current level of equipment, budget and personnel planned.

Because of the Commands’ tight nancial position, they have not prioritised funding for some enablers or have delayed funding them until the last possible opportunity. Some enablers remain unfunded and further analysis is ongoing to decide on the requirements and expected cost (Figure 11). The Department advised us that this is normal business

Hello MRCA. Both carriers will be fully manned. The crew of Queen Elizabeth is that of Illustrious decommissioned in 2014, while PoW will be crewed partly from that of Ocean. The rest of PoWs crew comes from the 300 personnel increace and manpower reshuffle to the RN as announced in the 2015 SDSR.

This was confirmed and disscussed further in the House of Lords at the time also. Although I can regretfully no longer find a link to the transcrip. But as mentioned in the Lords, as I remember it, was that the RN would have two fully manned carriers per the arangements made in the 2015 SDSR. Enabling fulltime carrier strike. There will be no extended readiness or one carrier laid up with a skeleton crew.

The 48 F-35s is only the initial plan out to the mid 2020s, for two frontime squadrons. I do agree the governments line of "12 F-35s deployed routinely" is wholly unrealistic during that time frame. Perhaps 6 or 8 will it be practice. But beyond 2025, more jets will be purchased, and more squadrons. It is not unreasonable to expect 4 frontline squadrons c.2030. Enough to routinely fill the decks with many F-35 and Merlins 24/7.

I'm pretty skeptical on the above, words from a politician, they tell you what you want to hear at the time. A reshuffle and 300 pers increase will get them over the line, and we wonder why T31 came about.

If it all comes to fruition I'll be the first to commend the RN, but it's a long way to tipperary.

[MRCA]

White elephant

If that's the case ok by why then are there type 45, type 23 and Albion class ships laid up due to insufficient manpower? 'I assume your saying the 300 will go solely to the 2nd carrier and those ships will remain laid up?

Well at the time of the announcement of 48 f35bs being purchase it was stated that that was concluded the acquisition for the carrier air wings. I think it's wishful thinking that additional f35s will be purchased in the 2025-2035 time frame, why because that is the time frame of maximum spend on trident and type 26 I can't see there being room in the budget for spending an additional 8 billion pounds on another 40 f35s.

im a great believer when it comes to MOD plans it doesn't really want to admit to look at training fleets and bases. The number of aircraft to train brand new pilots its now very small and getting smaller which suggest that we aren't in for major expansion anytime soon, also we're now down to 3 fastjet bases and with the delivery of 48 f35s Marham will be full so where do more jets go? Lossiemouth and coningsby are full and will require retention of typhoon at both bases unless f35 is taking over qra at one location and if it is then I'd guarantee you it won't be b versions were buying. An additional Sqn may stand up but I strongly suspect the f35 fleet will end up like the harrier fleet did of 3 sqns of 9 a/c and that's your lot.

As for merlin we aren't getting any more than 38 grey ones so if you need 13 for a single carrier that's x2 so 26 total, then 8 for the type 23/26 asw frigates another 8 for training and say 6 in deep maintenance were near at 50 a/c so that ain't gonna work either. Couple with that since 1998 when merlin entered service the RN have only managed to deploy 9 to the same ship once just once in near 20 years service, and that from a fleet of 40+ A/c. So I find it hard to believe this expanded commitment will suddenly become routine.

[abc123]

The Department advised us that this is normal business

[S M H]

we're now down to 3 fastjet bases

Leeming as ex Q R A hardened shelter air base .Could be returned to a fast jet base for an additional F35 base when later batches are procured. If they don't want to max out Marham.
.

[MRCA]

SMH

It could but then it would require more billions in infrastructure investment to bring it up to standard to support such a jet.

British defence procurement has been based on wishful thinking these past 25 years buying the big headline grabbing look how worldbeating bit of kit and hoping that somewhere down the line they'll get more money to support and deploy the kit properly and invariably it never happens. The service chiefs who started the mess are long since gone and mess then needs cleared up by those that follow. Which usually means personnel and capability cuts.

Sdsr10 did one thing it put financial reality of what our budget actually buys us on the table and forced a choice of what's affordable and what's important, sadly like most addicts we regressed and went splurging in sdsr2015 on capabilities we could not afford.

[S M H]

It could but then it would require more billions in infrastructure investment to bring it up to standard to support such a jet.

The support would in effect be covered by Marham there would be cost in up grading systems you would not require to duplicate Marham more like land based carrier support standards. The investment in U.S.A.F basing in the U.K. is sensibly no duplicate what's only just down the road.

[Gabriele]

Infrastructure in Marham growing up.

[MRCA]

SHM

No it really wouldn't. Marham will support some servicing and ocu type training. But simulators significant IT and line repair facilities to name a few not to mention accommodation upgrades and all the rest would be required at a station that won't of operated fast jets for nearly 20 years

[downsizer]

Don't have to have sims at Leeming. C17 sim is done in the US, crews from Lossie have travelled to Marham, Chinook pilots transit between Odi and Ben.

I agree it is unlikely, but it isn't that hard either.

[MRCA]

F35 sims are used for very different purposes than thos you've outlined like typhoon which has sims at both bases. F35 will use them to fly mission rehearsals as well as emergency procedures. When you decide to move 50% of your flight training to simulators you need sims were ever you go. It's why there putting them on the aircraft carriers too.

[shark bait]

Leeming as ex Q R A hardened shelter air base .Could be returned to a fast jet base for an additional F35 base when later batches are procured. If they don't want to max out Marham.

Sounds unlikely. A year ago there was talk of closing leeming.

[Gabriele]

Tim Robinson on Twitter has this great photo of the 8th and last test firing of ASRAAM.

[SKB]

Time-lapse footage of the F-35 Lightning II Gate Guardian being installed at BAE, Samlesbury, UK site during May 2017.

[SKB]

F-35B to be on display for Yeovilton Air Day (8th July)

(Forces TV)
See at 0:51

RNAS Yeovilton's air day has officially launched, with the show taking place on the 8th of July. Every year tens of thousands of people attend and this year is a landmark anniversary for the event. Aircraft like the swordfish and sea fury, which were the stars of the first air day here back in 1947, will be taking to the skies again 70 years on.

[ArmChairCivvy]

The F-35 is a fat, ugly duckling with no kinematics to speak of:
http://aviationweek.com/defense/f-35-ae ... s-air-show

A third of the lift from the body, the angle of attack (and also the sustained 7Gs explain why the requirement for the new trainer a/c has been set so high).

[Timmymagic]

A third of the lift from the body, the angle of attack (and also the sustained 7Gs explain why the requirement for the new trainer a/c has been set so high).

When the armchair critics finally give up on the F-35 and realise how good it is there is going to be a lot of humble pie eaten. But I think we're all going to miss the ability to spot the idiots easily though, the F-35 has been the 2000's equivalent of Russian Plasma Stealth for spotting eejits online was in the 90's....

[Defiance]

Don't think they will eat humble pie, the moaning will continue about it not achieving these levels of capability when AF-01 rolled out of Fort Worth.

[shark bait]

still a long way to go....

[Gabriele]

Royal Engineers from the Air Support group (39 Regiment and 71(R) Regiment and 20 Works Group - Airfields) are heading to 29 Palms in the US in August for F-35 austere "expeditionary airfield" work. And a strip and pad are expected to appear in Kinloss next year.

[shark bait]

Excellent news. Desires for an "expeditionary airfield" have been around for a while, good to see some action on it, and so soon!

[ArmChairCivvy]

A good thing that we are not falling off the (re-)emerging trend:
http://aviationweek.com/awin-only/swede ... operations