F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

[LordJim]

Doesn't the F-35 have in integral designator under the nose?

[Pymes75]

Doesn't the F-35 have in integral designator under the nose?

Yep, it's effectively an LM Sniper XP pod built into the fuselage. Another reason why the F-35's weapons capacity is greater than people realise as it doesn't need to hang a designator from one of the hardpoints.

[shark bait]

It's one of the biggest victims of the F35's terrible drawn out development, the designator is now old and way off the cutting edge. Not an issue with pods, it is when it's built in.

[Little J]

Wasn't there a bit of an uproar last year (or the year before), because LM was offering an upgrade but only for a price?

[shark bait]

Yes EOTS block 4 brings it back up to modern standards.

EOTS was cutting edge when it was developed, just they still haven't finished the aircraft to go around it, and EOTS will be 20 years old by the time the F35 is finished, thus the need for the upgrade.

[RetroSicotte]

There's nothing stopping it mounting a pod like anything else.

The internal one is still a big leap in that every one of them has one equipped out the gate and without using external hardpoints to do so. It's something over nothing.

[The Armchair Soldier]

UK announces a $52 mn investment for MBDA's Meteor air-to-air missile

[...] As part of a USD52 million contract, the Meteor air-to-air missiles will arm the UK’s F-35B Lightning II squadrons. It will provide the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy with a world beating missile that can engage with targets moving at huge speed and at a very long range. The weapon will enter service on Typhoon with the RAF in 2018 and the F-35B from 2024, and will be used on a range of missions including protecting the Queen Elizabeth Class Carriers.

Read More: http://airrecognition.com/index.php/arc ... ssile.html

[Gabriele]

EOTS was cutting edge when it was developed, just they still haven't finished the aircraft to go around it, and EOTS will be 20 years old by the time the F35 is finished, thus the need for the upgrade.

It is a reality of complex aircraft development. It did not begin with the F-35, and most definitely won't end with it.

[abc123]

UK announces a $52 mn investment for MBDA's Meteor air-to-air missile

[...] As part of a USD52 million contract, the Meteor air-to-air missiles will arm the UK’s F-35B Lightning II squadrons. It will provide the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy with a world beating missile that can engage with targets moving at huge speed and at a very long range. The weapon will enter service on Typhoon with the RAF in 2018 and the F-35B from 2024, and will be used on a range of missions including protecting the Queen Elizabeth Class Carriers.

Read More: http://airrecognition.com/index.php/arc ... ssile.html

Any breakdown for these contracts? How many money for how many missiles?

[Gabriele]

Moving target capability in the current EOTS with Block 3F. http://www.janes.com/article/69744/f-35 ... f-software

[90inFIRST]

Watching an F35a blatt about above my house right now

[Jdam]

Very good news on Meteor, millimetre by millimetre we seems to be moving forward with weapon integration.

[Timmymagic]

Any breakdown for these contracts? How many money for how many missiles?

£539m total value.
Split into :
£41m Meteor integration with F-35 by 2024
£175m Sea Viper support contract for T45
£323m production contract for CAMM for the Army and Navy.

Total number of CAMM isn't published but £300k would be a reasonable guess for 1 unit, so at most c1,000, probably less once other items are taken into account.

[S M H]

Having to modified Meteor to fit the Lightning bomb bays will cause a sub class of Meteor. Or could the modifications be incorporated into all production missiles, Would the integration tempt the U. S. N . to purchase Meteor? They have had no long range air to air capability since they retired the F14 Tom cats with their phoenix missiles.

[Defiance]

Potentially the predominant variant of Meteor considering the tendency towards internal carriage moving forward.

[2HeadsBetter]

"Very good news on Meteor" - seconded. Good news makes a pleasant change.

[Timmymagic]

Having to modified Meteor to fit the Lightning bomb bays will cause a sub class of Meteor. Or could the modifications be incorporated into all production missiles, Would the integration tempt the U. S. N . to purchase Meteor? They have had no long range air to air capability since they retired the F14 Tom cats with their phoenix missiles.

It does make sense to have just one variant. But unless they've got the clipped wings etc ready now it may be too late for the initial purchases. All of the drop/firing tests to date will have been the 'standard' version. So unless we want an even greater delay on the Typhoon in service date I suspect we'll have 2 variants. it may be that the initial batches will be Typhoon only before switching to a clipped wing version for both types. That would mean more firings from Typhoon though.

What hasn't been mentioned is what performance is lost when they clip the wings/do the other mods. They're there for a reason after all, it might be 2 variants is the best idea. The full Meteor for Typhoon as the UK's main A2A asset, and a reduced range/manoeuverabilty variant for F-35.

It would make sense for the USN at least to buy some Meteor. But it made also sense for the US to buy Brimstone....not invented here is strong over there. Given the actual combat performance of the AIM-54 Phoenix in USN hands a Meteor purchase would actually be the first long range capability that they would have ever deployed.....because they may as well have been carrying concrete blocks for what use it actually was, particularly in the early variants.

[abc123]

Any breakdown for these contracts? How many money for how many missiles?

£539m total value.
Split into :
£41m Meteor integration with F-35 by 2024
£175m Sea Viper support contract for T45
£323m production contract for CAMM for the Army and Navy.

Total number of CAMM isn't published but £300k would be a reasonable guess for 1 unit, so at most c1,000, probably less once other items are taken into account.

Thanks.

Numbers for Meteor integration on F-35 do seem as awfully low?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Given the actual combat performance of the AIM-54 Phoenix in USN hands a Meteor purchase would actually be the first long range capability that they would have ever deployed

Iran used them to a huge effect against the best of Mirages and Migs (no BVR capability in the OpFor), so no reason to doubt the effectiveness... Meteor would not be flying straight into combat either. if deployment is defined in that way?

[Timmymagic]

Iran used them to a huge effect against the best of Mirages and Migs (no BVR capability in the OpFor), so no reason to doubt the effectiveness... Meteor would not be flying straight into combat either. if deployment is defined in that way?

You should say that Iran 'claimed' to have used them to great effect. All with no contractor support, spares, depth of experience, limited numbers of personnel trained to use it and maintain it. And they were using the earliest model which had significant deficiencies. As the saying goes..they would say that wouldn't they...the USN's experience with AIM-54, particularly the early models, and their combat usage isn't particularly inspiring.

You're right though, we're all assuming that Meteor works as advertised...

[Timmymagic]

Numbers for Meteor integration on F-35 do seem as awfully low?

That's the contract for MBDA, I suspect we'll have to pay separately to LM/BAe for other work.

[Jdam]

Is the UK funding the Meteor works by itself?

[Timmymagic]

Is the UK funding the Meteor works by itself?

Yes. Of the F-35 users/customers so far only the UK and Italy are procuring Meteor, and I'm not sure if Italy plans to field F-35 with Meteor as they also have Amraam. That may change over time. However, the Japanese will be likely to be very interested in F-35/Meteor particularly with the work they're doing with the UK around an AESA seeker for Meteor. Given the strategic position they're in, no shortage of money and the threat they face I suspect a Meteor sale to Japan is a near certainty. For the other countries procuring the F-35 the best chance for a Meteor sale are Australia, Norway and South Korea. But all of those countries also use Amraam. Australia is an enthusiastic user of Asraam, but has also bought the 9X for it's Super Hornets to avoid integration costs so could go either way. Norway also uses Amraam, but has a stake in both missiles production, again they could go either way, as could South Korea.

Mainly we're integrating it for ourselves, but with a degree of hope that other orders will be forthcoming.

[Gabriele]

41 million are for MBDA-side work, including developing the change kit with the smaller clipped fins to allow 4 Meteor to fit inside the F-35, plus purchase of the rounds destined to the tests.

Actual integration is more likely to be in the hundreds of millions region. Italy is more than interested, and talks were ongoing already years ago for a 50/50 programme, with the expectation being an expense of some 100 million euro each, but what the forces want and what the ministry funds are not always the same thing. Due also to political instability, the italian MOD lately has been consistently late with decisions on the F-35. To this day, as far as i know, the finalized contracts for the italian aircraft in LRIP 9 and 10 have not been announced even though the aircraft are rapidly taking shape in Cameri.

[Timmymagic]

Thanks Gabriele as ever.

On the MBDA work. Do we know yet it Meteor for F-35 will be a specific variant or will it end up being a change of fins and not much more? Presumably this will have an effect on performance, presumably small? Hopefully, the actual the integration work will happen in the next couple of years and involve more than the UK and Italy and help spread the costs around a little.