F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Lord Jim
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

Given USN ships are "Dry" the USMC will probably simply put money behind the bar so to speak on the Queen Elizabeth, or will the USMC personnel be ordered to refrain form drinking on board whilst on the cruise?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

bobp wrote:Yes we must test the American Beer
I would wave the beer (= shite) through and concentrate on :) the steaks
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

bobp wrote:A lot of the US "gear" will be exactly the same as the UK gear including fuel. Remember its exactly the same Aircraft apart from Radios. So I would imagine that apart from US munitions, and spares there will not be a great deal of "gear". So I would imagine that it will be loaded in the UK before the QE sets sail.
Obviously fuel will be provided from the ships stores. But spares, munitions, personal gear, tools, training materials etc. will be a lot of kit, particularly for a deployment of a period of months. There's also the issue of the USMC 'space' aboard the ship that was to be equipped with US comms gear, mission planning etc. That will take time to get installed, configured and set up. Particularly as its the first time that they will have done it. It's not really been clear how 'empty' that space is. The USN/USMC were involved in the design of that space so that it had appropriate power,comms link etc. but its never been clear if there will be some kit permanently installed for ease of deployment.
Lord Jim wrote:Given USN ships are "Dry" the USMC will probably simply put money behind the bar so to speak on the Queen Elizabeth, or will the USMC personnel be ordered to refrain form drinking on board whilst on the cruise?
They seemed to be given free reign when a USMC AV-8B squadron were deployed on HMS Illustrious off the East Coast of the US for a couple of weeks in 2007. The problem might be getting them off at the end of the deployment...

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Poor form to refuse offered hospitality! :mrgreen:

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

V true, much has been made of it (here, too, and the non-believers keep coming back... let the film roll on 8-) )

@GarethJennings3:

"Much has been made about cost of retrofitting F-35 to Block 4 standard, with questions of affordability raised (over £22 m per a/c is a figure I've seen touted). AFAIK, this is the first time the gov has officially spoken to the possibility of not all UK F-35Bs being upgraded"

For the UK the big issue is not just upgrading all or some of F-35s, but for the mixed fleet (F-35 in minority) to be able to work optimally together there would need to be a GW on Tiffies (successfully tested years ago) for stealthy communications; rather than the stealth fighters going 'solo'
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

dmereifield
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by dmereifield »

How many of ours would need upgrading? And what capabilities will the non upgraded have? Could we end up with a similar situation whereby we have a squadron of less capable air frames dedicated to CAS and the newer air frames doing the strike etc (akin to the situation with the T1 Typhoons)?

Lord Jim
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

I wonder if we might end up with say 16 to 24 F-35s upgraded to Block 4, with these only used for detachments deployed to the Carrier, whereas the remainder would be used for training and routine operations, with the idea to keep the usage of the Block 4s as low as possible. Pilots would be kept familiar with the systems on board the Block 4 by using the simulator. Obviously further deliveries, if they happen, at some point in the future would be Block 4 aircraft.

What worries me though is will there be further upgrades like that of Block 4 in the future?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

dmereifield wrote: (akin to the situation with the T1 Typhoons)?
+
Lord Jim wrote:only used for detachments deployed to the Carrier, whereas the remainder would be used for training
Good ideas... until one calculates the fraction of our £9.2 bn investment being diverted to one or the other (or both :idea: )

The F-35 can levitate... but the economy can't (implications for the defence budget :?: )
Lord Jim wrote: further upgrades like that of Block 4 in the future?
Block 5 in on the drawing board. BUT let's make a notebook entry about the difference:
- Block 4 is for what we 'actually bought'
- Block 5 will be no different from how all fighters evolve over their 'long-ish' service lives
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

The £22m per aircraft is the worst case scenario for the oldest aircraft. The UK has very few of these. Until recently the Block IV upgrades were only going to be software updates for the most recent production aircraft, but I saw something recently that implied that it might be a little more than that as only aircraft rolling off the production line from 2023 will require no hardware upgrades whatsoever.

So of the UK's '48' here's the status:
Note - Delivery is usually a minimum of 2 years after order.

Delivered to date

LRIP 1 - April 2007 - No UK Orders, (US F-35A only)
LRIP 2 - July 2007 - No UK Orders (6 F-35B for USMC first ordered)
LRIP 3 - May 2008 - 2 x UK F-35B order - Test aircraft for ITF (not combat capable)
LRIP 4 - Nov 2009 - 1 x UK F-35B order - First 'Combat Capable' aircraft - BK-03
LRIP 5 - Dec 2011 - No UK Orders
LRIP 6 - Sept 2013 - No UK Orders
LRIP 7 - Sept 2013 - 1 x UK F-35B Order - Additional Test aircraft for ITF (not combat capable)
LRIP 8 - Nov 2014 - 4 x UK F-35B Order
LRIP 9 - Nov 2015 - 6 x UK F-35B Order
LRIP 10 - 2016 - 3 x UK F-35B Order
LRIP 11 - 2017 - 1 x UK F-35B Order

Total - 18 Delivered

On Order, Not delivered - Note LRIP's 12, 13 and 14 were done together as a 'Bulk Buy'

LRIP 12 - Nov 2018 - 3 x UK F-35B Order - These will be delivered in late 2020
LRIP 13 - Nov 2018 - 6 x UK F-35B Order - Likely to be delivered in 2021
LRIP 14 - Nov 2018 - 8 x UK F-35B Order - Likely to be delivered in 2022

Total - 17 contracted

Next Steps
Full Rate Production Order (FRP) - ? once pricing agreed - 13 x UK F-35B Order - Delivered in 2023?

Total - 13 Promised

This gives the total of 48 F-35B by 2024. When the FRP order and orders beyond are placed is anyone's guess....

Excluding BK-03, which was procured under LRIP 4, and the 3 x ITF aircraft, which are not getting upgrades to Blk.IV, the aircraft procured under LRIP 7-11 are the ones that will cost a bit (not £22m) to upgrade for the UK. The older the LRIP, the higher the upgrade cost will be. The UK has 15 a/c in this category. In contrast the USMC had already bought 40 F-35B in LRIP's 2-6 before the UK really got started and has 65ish F-35B delivered at present that will need upgrading (that's a point worth noting... the UK has 18 F-35B, the USMC started a lot earlier and has 65ish, we're not doing as bad as everyone thinks, the F-35A deliveries really do cloud the overall numbers)

There are also other upgrades beyond Block IV that will need to be factored in to remove obsolescence (e.g. the EOTS is getting upgraded with new units, older F-35 will need these changed as the current units will cease to be supported).

So the £1bn cost that Gareth Jennings mentioned in his tweet doesn't really stack up. At least 13 of the 48, that have yet to be ordered, should be delivered 'Block IV ready'. The previous 17 (LRIPS 12-14) should required only minor upgrades to software and, possibly, hardware. Not £22m per a/c worth (with the exception of BK-03)...we've avoided the worst of it. My hunch is we'll have about <£200m cost to upgrade all 45 x 'Combat Capable' F-35B to the same standard, including EOTS obsolescence.

Current split is: 3 a/c 17 Sqn (TES) at Edwards AFB in the US, 6 a/c 207 Sqn (OCU) at Marham, and 9 a/c 617 Sqn at Marham. Not 100% sure where the 3 from LRIP 12, delivered later this year, will go to. They could bring 207 Sqn up to 9 a/c or more likely go to 617 Sqn to bring them up to 12 a/c overall, in time for CSG21 on HMS Queen Elizabeth (although only 8 are going onboard).

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Jdam »

Another interesting point came up.
I've previously been told that Meteor and SPEAR to be integrated following FOC in 2023 and through to 2025, which would be before Block 4 even before the recently reported delay. Need to double-check though.
First I hearing on this thought these weapons were B4 myself.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Jdam wrote:First I hearing on this thought these weapons were B4 myself
Someone was saying the same about JSM being 'integrated' in 2023. It might be flight tested with weapons release trials, or perhaps a limited capability release by 2023, with 'Full Capability' waiting until Block IV.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Timmymagic wrote:Full Rate Production Order (FRP) - ? once pricing agreed - 13 x UK F-35B Order - Delivered in 2023?

Total - 13 Promised

This gives the total of 48 F-35B by 2024. When the FRP order and orders beyond are placed is anyone's guess....
So it is fair to think that these "last" of the 48, the baker's dozen allowing for a rotten one in the counted quantity, will be "pukka" as to what we thought we were buying in the first place
Timmymagic wrote:the USMC started a lot earlier and has 65ish, we're not doing as bad as everyone thinks, the F-35A deliveries really cloud the numbers)
Lots of quotes from the US, including top brass, that there will be 130+ that will never get upgraded; is the USMC 65 (of Bs) number included in that? Can't remember

[/quote]
Timmymagic wrote:13 of the 48, that have yet to be ordered, should be delivered 'Block IV ready'.
Timmymagic wrote:with 'Full Capability' waiting until Block IV.
... better buy the "SideSling" or whatever it is called for 6 internal-carry AMRAAMs? As it will arrive earlier
... put any extra missiles required now, later on onto the Tiffies doing rapid-alert duty (or, if some F-35s get relegated , then on them - so as not to waste the money on an even further AMRAAM buy when we have built a world-beating missile ourselves; just can't get it onto 'our' best planes. Some folks who have less money to spend are husbanding their resources better; like in 2015 the Swedish air force Gripens were the first to go operational with the new missile.

However, we are doing a pure bottom-up approach here. This much, for so many of our planes... hence the total will add up to...
- Ron is saying that for those UK weapons that were listed in the Tier 1 partnering agreement nothing more will become payable, which ever way Block 4 will be navigated though to "delivery"
- upthread I have quoted some links that would point to a different kind of result
Hence, the cool 1 bn grand total is... within the possible; perhaps even :idea: the likeliest outcome
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:Ron is saying that for those UK weapons that were listed in the Tier 1 partnering agreement nothing more will become payable,
I didn't say that, please don't put words in my mouth.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Want to find the quote of what you did say?
- they say that F-35 is no good in twisting and turning but the discussion certainly features some :) of those features

Across three threads I have urged you to come up with counter quotes: governmental, Pentagon (JPO would count ;) ) or from LM who should know (but they tend to colour the picture, so a good journalistic practice would look for something from the "buyer side" to corroborate)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:So it is fair to think that these "last" of the 48, the baker's dozen allowing for a rotten one in the counted quantity, will be "pukka" as to what we thought we were buying in the first place
They should hopefully be ready, or perhaps need minimal updates. Remember although they'll be delivered in 2023, quite when the sub-assemblies are made is another matter.
ArmChairCivvy wrote:Lots of quotes from the US, including top brass, that there will be 130+ that will never get upgraded; is the USMC 65 (of Bs) number included in that? Can't remember
Probably 40 odd are in the 'expensive to update' category, with possibly 20 or so of that number in the 'bloody hell, is it worth it' category. In the case of the F-35A that the USAF had to upgrade the thought was they could be used for training or Aggressor roles. When you've got as many as the USAF has you could make that choice. The USMC, however, may want to upgrade, particularly as it looks like their overall buy is significantly less than they wanted.
ArmChairCivvy wrote:... better buy the "SideSling" or whatever it is called for 6 internal-carry AMRAAMs?
Sidekick only fits the larger internal bays of the F-35A and F-35C. Won't fit on F-35B.
ArmChairCivvy wrote:like in 2015 the Swedish air force Gripens were the first to go operational with the new missile.
We'll have c200 Amraam D (and 120 Amraam C-5 until they're time expired) in the stockpile until Meteor goes into service on F-35B (and we'll have at least 500 Meteor in stock). Which is plenty. We've fired a grand total of 0 medium/long range missiles in combat in their 50 years of service with the RAF/RN. Gripen got integrated first, by a matter of 1 year, as they had a spare Gripen that they could lend to the trials team. Given the limited numbers of Tranche 2 and 3 Typhoon available at the time thats understandable. Not sure if Saab will need to re-do the work for Gripen E though...so we may have gotten the better deal. Arguably the Swedish AF need was far greater than ours as Gripen really needed Meteor to remain competitive against SU-27 series aircraft.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Timmymagic wrote:they could be used for training or Aggressor roles. When you've got as many as the USAF has you could make that choice.
Exactly the point
Timmymagic wrote: Sidekick only fits the larger internal bays of the F-35A and F-35C. Won't fit on F-35B
Ohh, Sh&t-to... well, we have the two more (of another flavour) on the stealthy wingtips. Even though that idea was for the stealthy bomber that can do self defence... ne need to be escorted
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Repulse wrote:https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... -its-f-35s
Yeah...that article is based around the Hansard record and Gareth Jennings tweet that was pretty much 48 x £22m = A lot of money...which doesn't really correspond with reality..

The Hansard exhange is the real meat. But its a bit of a nothing burger really. They may choose not to upgrade a few of the oldest ones if LM comes back with a ludicrous price for the upgrade and just leave them with the OCU as dedicated training aircraft. Not ideal, but understandable.

You never know...if the US and UK both take the stance that they're not upgrading a fair few LM might look at the pricing for the upgrades...

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by bobp »

Is it not the case that some of the early f35b models have reduced airframe hours because of cracks in bulkheads. And that these need major rebuilds to bring up to current standards.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

bobp wrote:Is it not the case that some of the early f35b models have reduced airframe hours because of cracks in bulkheads. And that these need major rebuilds to bring up to current standards.
There was some cracking in bulkheads on very early F-35B for the USMC but a fix was made and all built since have been re-inforced. It didn't really affect the UK's apart from the ITF aircraft and BK-03. The remainder should be fine. But to my knowledge they've never completed the full testing of the F-35B for fatigue life.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Timmymagic wrote:The Hansard exhange is the real meat[. But its a bit of] = a nothing burger really. They may choose not to upgrade a few of the oldest ones if LM comes back with a ludicrous price for the upgrade and just leave them with the OCU as dedicated training aircraft. Not ideal, but understandable.

You never know...if the US and UK both take the stance that they're not upgrading a fair few LM might look at the pricing for the upgrades...
The two leading lights of what used to be called the Free World; held to ransom by one company... given the position as purveyors to "the Court" by misguided industrial policies
- makes me tear the hair out (where's that emoticon :) ?)

But anyway: Ron is going to come back with his take on the charging out of Block IV
- aren't you, Ron 8-)
- then we can start to tot up the bar bill, and kick all the smart (but irrelevant) wordings aside. Facts, facts, and facts, my dear boy (and DO remember to add links for yours, ehhm)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

I'm curious, as a point of reference and because block 4 contains Meteor integration, how much is in the budget to integrate Meteor with Typhoon?

I don't mean base development of the missile itself but how much to develop the Typhoon & typhoon radar software & hardware modifications, trials, certification, actual aircraft changes etc.? and over how many airframes?

Anybody know?

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

SW1 wrote:According to gov 85m pounds

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... v1_1-O.PDF
Not hardly dude, that's just the money left to be spent on something that's supposed to already be in service. What's the total that's been spent? over how many airframes?

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