F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

[Timmymagic]

The critics really are running out of steam now on F-35.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist but there was certainly a Russian disinformation campaign for a number of years around F-35, all aimed at getting sentiment against it. It's good to see that its failed, and the people who went along with it thoroughly exposed. It's noticeable that as the orders and deliveries of F-35 have racked up the disinformation campaign seems to have noticeably wound down over the last year or 2 as the chances of it achieving its goals have disappeared.

[abc123]

The critics really are running out of steam now on F-35.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist but there was certainly a Russian disinformation campaign for a number of years around F-35, all aimed at getting sentiment against it. It's good to see that its failed, and the people who went along with it thoroughly exposed. It's noticeable that as the orders and deliveries of F-35 have racked up the disinformation campaign seems to have noticeably wound down over the last year or 2 as the chances of it achieving its goals have disappeared.

Yep, Russian spies behind every bush:

[Little J]

Pierre Sprey doesn't seem to get much airtime anymore does he (not a bad thing, always thought he was a plank)

[Lord Jim]

I don't think those who have criticized the F-35 are running out of steam because they have been proved wrong, but more likely they realize that so much has been invested in it, it has to succeed even if that means throwing more money at it and even bodging a few issues. Except for updated F-15/16/18 it is the only game in town, though we might see further orders for the F-15 and F-18 before those lines finally close down.

I still do not see how the F-35A can replace the A-10C though, maybe the USAF should look for a more radical solution for that, as I do not think stealth and CAS go that well together.

[abc123]

I don't think those who have criticized the F-35 are running out of steam because they have been proved wrong, but more likely they realize that so much has been invested in it, it has to succeed even if that means throwing more money at it and even bodging a few issues.

This.
Also, they really fixed many issues, so that's now pretty fine aircraft, not even too expensive comparing with legacy platforms. But the money that was spent on development and delays...

[ArmChairCivvy]

we might see further orders for the F-15 and F-18 before those lines finally close down.

Those orders may be few (70-ish for the former, and abt twice that for the latter), but they matter hugely as for where the 6th gen fighter will come from
... FCAS, of course , but there might be another game in town, too (and Tempest?)

[seaspear]

Well just to spice things up President Trump has suggested pulling back from manufacturing parts outside the U.S


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-15/ ... a/12252384

[ArmChairCivvy]

That's
" international partners [that] contribute to the massive international global military program, which is run by American defence giant Lockheed Martin.

But Mr Trump has suggested the United States may pull back the international supply chains and do all the work domestically instead."
what I call export promotion.
-and of course the joint PMO which was the foreign partners' voice was is being disassembled.

A massive boost for the two nxt-gen prgrms running in Europe and vindicates Japan's decision that whatever partnering they may enter into and take place, sovereignty will be the overriding criterion.

[SW1]

Interesting just as block 4 slips right and cost go up

https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing ... 45.article

The Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II’s modernisation is two years behind schedule and its cost has risen by $1.5 billion.

The Block 4 upgrade - a modernisation of the relatively new stealth fighter’s software and hardware - was initially to be delivered by 2024, but now will not be handed over until 2026, according to a report released by the Government Accountability Office (GAO) on 12 May.

[Timmymagic]

The Block 4 upgrade - a modernisation of the relatively new stealth fighter’s software and hardware - was initially to be delivered by 2024, but now will not be handed over until 2026, according to a report released by the Government Accountability Office (GAO) on 12 May.

Been saying that Meteor, Asraam CSP and Spear are going to be 2026 at the earliest for a while...

I think we can now move that date to 2028+, because lets face it LM aren't going to do blk.IV any earlier and if anything its going to be pushed farther and farther out.

If Lockheed wanted to get orders cancelled they are going exactly the right way about it. For a whole lot of reasons, with this added to them, I now can't see the UK ordering more than 70ish F-35B ever....if that.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Been saying that Meteor, Asraam CSP and Spear are going to be 2026 at the earliest for a while...

I think we can now move that date to 2028+

24 in 24!
28 in 28!

[Timmymagic]

24 in 24!
28 in 28!

I've been in favour of limiting the UK's buy of F-35 to c90 maximum for a while. That was based on fiscal realities and the necessity of switching the UK's Combat Air effort to Tempest at some point c2030. But I have to say I think now we should stick at 70-75 max and use them for the Carriers only. Lets get some more Typhoon and go all in on Tempest. I've been willing to give LM the benefit of the doubt but Blk.IV has broken me...its been pared down and LM still can't hit even close to the deadline. They're either incompetent or milking it for all the money that its worth, the JPO seems unable to hold them to account and Trump is chucking fuel on the flames.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Part of the explanation for slower progress could be that some purely US 'stuff' is given priority, like:
"To date, the F-35 has successfully integrated with the Aegis Missile Defense system, a [Lockheed Martin] High Mobility Artillery Rocket System, or HIMARS, the Integrated Air and Missile Defense Battle Command System (IBCS), and most recently in partnership with the Missile Defense Agency and U.S. Air Force, we successfully connected an F-35, U-2, and a multi-domain ground station," Ulmer said. "The advantages of the F-35 integrated and fused sensor suite now can be made available to other airborne, air, and even subsurface warfighters."

That's all fine and dandy... but then comes the worrying bit for our mixed JSF/ Tiffie fleet:

- Advanced data links to allow the F-35 to communicate with other aircraft while maintaining stealth will also likely [continue to] be a priority.

- In the House-Senate report on the Fiscal 2020 NDAA, defense authorizers told the Pentagon "to develop a joint development and acquisition strategy to procure a resilient, low latency, and low probability of detection data link network capability that would enable effective operation in the contested environments highlighted in the National Defense Strategy."

- The department’s response was incomplete and inadequate, recommending no change to current department policy that designates the F-35’s Multifunction Advanced Data Link (MADL) as the solution for 5th to 4th generation air platform networked communications."

- "Both the Navy and Air Force acknowledge that the aircraft modifications needed to install MADL are unaffordable at scale," according to the report. So the fact that we have had a positive test with a comms GW installed on a Typhoon that would handle the 4th/ 5th gen communication without the latter sacrificing its stealth
... seems to have been just that: a technical proof. Affordability might be the reason that nothing's been heard since. [Or has someone spotted any plans in this regard?]

[Timmymagic]

Part of the explanation for slower progress could be that some purely US 'stuff' is given priority, like:

The way I've read those is that they're tests incorporating the current level of development and have taken little away from the block 4 development

[Ron5]

Oh how I laughed ...

https://twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/ ... 4238873604

[Ron5]

They're either incompetent or milking it for all the money that its worth, the JPO seems unable to hold them to account and Trump is chucking fuel on the flames.

Full of piss and vinegar, just wait until Tempest gets real

AKA software is a bitch.

[jonas]

I am given to understand that the UK is due 3 aircraft in 2020, any ideas on dates for this ?

[bobp]

I am given to understand that the UK is due 3 aircraft in 2020, any ideas on dates for this ?

We are supposed to be getting 17 F35b by the end of 2023.

[albedo]

We are supposed to be getting 17 F35b by the end of 2023.

Latest I'd seen was 17 more by the end of 2022 - see:

https://des.mod.uk/f-35-fleet-17-jet-order/

But that announcement is 18 months old now - has there been a more recent update?

[ArmChairCivvy]

If we take the £9.2 bn budget line,
we know that over half a bn goes into upgrading Marham (Project Anvil... I thought that took place in the South of France) and the infamous article in The Times had a quote from a senior source that a bn would be needed to retroactively fit all that realising the potential of the planes would require. Now
- whether that bn would be budgeted later, or, will it eat into the number to be procured?
- even knowing the answer to that will not get the targeted number of planes (9.2 less 1.5, divided by unit cost X) as the budget figure covers sustaining the fleet (spares?) over the 10 yrs of the EP horizon

[bobp]

Latest I'd seen was 17 more by the end of 2022

ok makes sense if we are to have them by 2023.

[Scimitar54]

3 in 2020
6 in 2021
5 in 2022

[bobp]

3 in 2020 6 in 2021 5 in 2022

Does not add up to 17

[Scimitar54]

Where the figure of 17 came from will remain a mystery (plucked from the air or a mistake perhaps). The number of additional F35 is 18, if 2023 were to be included.

[jonas]

Without wishing to appear churlish, I know how many we are supposed to be getting by 2023, but my question was does anyone know the approx date when the 3 aircraft due to be delivered this year might be.