Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.
User avatar
RichardIC
Senior Member
Posts: 1371
Joined: 10 May 2015, 16:59
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by RichardIC »

Just realised that link doesn't contain the video


NickC
Donator
Posts: 1432
Joined: 01 Sep 2017, 14:20
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by NickC »

RN press release states Martlet (LMM) has >6 km range, half the speed (Mach ~1.6) of the Starstreak (HVM) >7 km range, the lighter Martlet can be fired from a small shoulder launcher and the operator guides it using a joystick which controls a laser beam on which the missile flies, said to give greater accuracy than Starstreak as operator has more time with joystick to target drone/aircraft.

Comment implies that Starstreak needs an upgraded joystick/guidance system so as to be better able to target missiles/aircraft.

Any thoughts why Starstreak never adopted by RN in its AAW role in preference to the ~1.5 km short range Phalanx, French have continued to develop the similar Mistral and only recently funded new SPIMM ship launcher, previously used the six missile SADRAL ship launcher.

Online
mr.fred
Senior Member
Posts: 1468
Joined: 06 May 2015, 22:53
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by mr.fred »

NickC wrote:
Any thoughts why Starstreak never adopted by RN in its AAW role in preference to the ~1.5 km short range Phalanx,
I would hazard that it’s because phalanx is an anti-missile system and HVM isn’t.

User avatar
Gabriele
Senior Member
Posts: 1998
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:53
Contact:
Italy

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Gabriele »

HVM can also be shoulder-launched, although you don't see that so often.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

Arma Pacis Fulcra.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Lord Jim »

The Army's three round pedestal launcher for the HVM could be useful on small RN vessels and RFAs, especially if adapted to fire the LMM.

User avatar
RichardIC
Senior Member
Posts: 1371
Joined: 10 May 2015, 16:59
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by RichardIC »

Lord Jim wrote:The Army's three round pedestal launcher for the HVM could be useful on small RN vessels and RFAs, especially if adapted to fire the LMM.
Wouldn’t want to be guiding a missile from an exposed pedestal on a moving vessel in filthy weather with a heavy swell. Rather have one of these:

Image

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Timmymagic »

NickC wrote:RN press release states Martlet (LMM) has >6 km range, half the speed (Mach ~1.6) of the Starstreak (HVM) >7 km range, the lighter Martlet can be fired from a small shoulder launcher and the operator guides it using a joystick which controls a laser beam on which the missile flies, said to give greater accuracy than Starstreak as operator has more time with joystick to target drone/aircraft.

Comment implies that Starstreak needs an upgraded joystick/guidance system so as to be better able to target missiles/aircraft.
I think that statement on the RM release is wrong. LMM is using the same Control Unit as Starstreak which uses SACLOS. LMM/Martlet is a development of the Starburst, which itself was a development of Javelin, which itself was a development of Blowpipe. Blowpipe used joystick control, and as a result was incredibly hard to use or hit anything with as its combat performance in the Falklands proved. Consequently Javelin was developed with SACLOS to resolve these issues. And thats why its rare to see Starstreak, Starburst or LMM fired from the shoulder instead of the tripod mount. Its far easier to track a target using the sight from a mount than the shoulder.

I find the idea that LMM/Martlet have reverted to this prehistoric, failed control method, and thus necessitated entirely new CLU's very, very unlikely. Think its a mistake in the press release.
NickC wrote:Any thoughts why Starstreak never adopted by RN in its AAW role in preference to the ~1.5 km short range Phalanx, French have continued to develop the similar Mistral and only recently funded new SPIMM ship launcher, previously used the six missile SADRAL ship launcher.
It was proposed as a CIWS replacement for Phalanx on a large mount (rather like the Aselsan mount further down on this page) some years ago (back in the GCS days). It would have made a fantastic CIWS. I suspect for the RN the relative prevalence of Goalkeeper, Phalanx and Sea Wolf at the time made the idea moot. I think its something we should revisit, but in a slightly different way.
Lord Jim wrote:The Army's three round pedestal launcher for the HVM could be useful on small RN vessels and RFAs, especially if adapted to fire the LMM.
How about this...sadly no longer on MSI's product catalogue. But I'm sure they'd resurrect it if asked nicely. RN standard DS30M mount with RN standard 30mm Bushmaster, with the addition of 7 x LMM mounted along side. I don't expect it would be beyond the wit of man to mount Starstreak on it...it already has E/O sighting systems. Suddenly every RN vessel armed with a DS30M becomes a whole lot more potent...add in a couple of radar panels from the lovely people at Blighter and you have yourselves a multi-purpose mount that doubles as a CIWS. I'd imagine for the MCMV vessels it would be a particularly welcome upgrade if they're operating near potentially hostile shores.
Oh and all made in the UK...with the exception of the 30mm cannon..

https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/a-ship-t ... awk-sigma/

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Timmymagic »

Here's a 3D Model of the proposed SeaStreak. Lots more information at the Secret Projects site (you may need to register to be able to open the images up).



SeaStreak was proposed in 1986! 24 missiles....would have been an incredible CIWS then and now. More engagements than Phalanx at a far greater range and speed (and hit probability). And you could reload all 24 missiles by hand far quicker than reloading a Phalanx...

There's also a far simpler 6 missile manual mount, the Naval Missile Launcher...have to wonder how good that would be without some form of stabilisation. And we could have had these close to 30 years ago....admittedly with Javelin then Starburst but...

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/thread ... rads.6477/

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Lord Jim »

I wonder how this system would compare to todays the US/German RAM system? The Idea of adding six or more LMM to the RN's 30mm mounts seems a very low cost option that would greatly increase their utility as well as being a useful addition to an RFA, fitted when needed of course. Adopting the LMM or even Starstreak as a CIWS to replace or compliment the Phalanx again makes sense. I wonder if we could integrate the same six round launcher mentioned above onto a Phalanx mount? Now that would give us a similar system to what the Russians are using, though more compact and not requiring the deck to be penetrated.

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Timmymagic »

Lord Jim wrote:I wonder how this system would compare to todays the US/German RAM system?
Not really comparable. It's a significantly smaller missile with a lot shorter range. But as
Lord Jim wrote:The Idea of adding six or more LMM to the RN's 30mm mounts seems a very low cost option that would greatly increase their utility as well as being a useful addition to an RFA, fitted when needed of course.
Absolutely. Suddenly any DS30 mount goes from being a decent short range defence against surface targets with a range of 2km max to a multi-purpose mount with capability out to 8km against surface or air targets.
Lord Jim wrote:Adopting the LMM or even Starstreak as a CIWS to replace or compliment the Phalanx again makes sense.
I think it would make sense as a compliment when onboard ships already fitted, but for ships that have no other major weapon system it would dramatically increase their defensive capability. With proliferation of UAV's I think its just a matter of time before we have to embrace something like this (just look at the Houthi loitering munitions..)
Lord Jim wrote:I wonder if we could integrate the same six round launcher mentioned above onto a Phalanx mount?
There have been some studies of mounting laser weapons on the side of Phalanx mounts as well as the gun so clearly the mount is capable of handling additional loads. Personally I'd rather see a development on a larger calibre weapon like the non-deck penetrating 40mm CTA naval mount that the French are working on. 20mm really has had its day.

NickC
Donator
Posts: 1432
Joined: 01 Sep 2017, 14:20
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by NickC »



Thales video of the LMM ground firing trials in February/March from the same launcher and with the same sensor ball that will be used to fire it from RN Wildcat helicopters.

The trials consisted of six LMMs being fired from the Thales-designed launcher system at a small boat target at sea at a distance of 4.5kms. All missiles were test rounds with no warhead, but were fitted with telemetry software enabling data to be gathered to analyse the launcher, the guidance system and missile performance.

The successful achievement of the ground firings is a major milestone and key to progressing to future testing including air firing trials later in 2019 and culminating in qualification and verification in 2020.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... arget.html

RetroSicotte
Retired Site Admin
Posts: 2657
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by RetroSicotte »

I'd be very curious to know how powerful that shaped charge is. Right now it's not being seen as an AT missile, but it could be a darkhorse threat.

PapaGolf
Member
Posts: 46
Joined: 13 Jun 2017, 21:43
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by PapaGolf »

RetroSicotte wrote:I'd be very curious to know how powerful that shaped charge is. Right now it's not being seen as an AT missile, but it could be a darkhorse threat.
I definitely think there's some additional utility in LMM that needs explored.

Comparing it to other AT missiles that are man guided and with a fairly flat trajectory, warhead weight is (from wiki):
LMM - 3kg
Tow - 4-6kg
Milan - not stated but total missile weight is 16.4KG
AT-5 Spandrel - 2.7kg
AT-14 Spriggan - 4.6kg - 10kg depending on version

Javelin has an 8KG warhead.


LMM might not be a tank killer but would be useful against lightly armoured vehicles, bunkers and structures.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Lord Jim »

I wonder if the LMM will ever be used with the new AH-64E Apache Guardian. Adapting the wings so that two or three could be fitted where it was once planned to fit Singer or Starstreak would be an interesting idea. OF course you could always use the existing launcher, as planned for the Wildcat, to replace one or more of the existing weapon systems on the current four hardpoints.

jimthelad
Member
Posts: 507
Joined: 14 May 2015, 20:16
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by jimthelad »

Milan had a warhead weight of 2.7kg, single stage HEAT with a beryllium copper liner. It was more effective than other heavier warheads on systems such as AT-4 spigot or Dragon due to it's wider face and tapered distal end causing a more focused plasma jet. Great bit of kit, heavy to lug around and an annoying minimum engagement range but awesomely accurate and would trash anything.

RetroSicotte
Retired Site Admin
Posts: 2657
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by RetroSicotte »

PapaGolf wrote:Comparing it to other AT missiles that are man guided and with a fairly flat trajectory, warhead weight is (from wiki):
LMM - 3kg
Tow - 4-6kg
Milan - not stated but total missile weight is 16.4KG
AT-5 Spandrel - 2.7kg
AT-14 Spriggan - 4.6kg - 10kg depending on version

Javelin has an 8KG warhead.


LMM might not be a tank killer but would be useful against lightly armoured vehicles, bunkers and structures.
Well, the AT-5 manages around 600mm RHAe penetration. It won't penetrate an MBTs front (most modern ones have 800-1000+ RHAe against CE projectiles) but that will hurt most of anything else.

Not bad for a little one.

User avatar
RichardIC
Senior Member
Posts: 1371
Joined: 10 May 2015, 16:59
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by RichardIC »



Tested on board HMS Sutherland. If you go to @hthjones there's a thread with more info.


RetroSicotte
Retired Site Admin
Posts: 2657
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by RetroSicotte »

Fantastic work. Could hopefully see a speedy introduction if it all goes smoothly.

What oddly fitting timing given recent events.

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Looks like it is directly "re-using" the 5 missile Wildcat's launcher, and not newly designed 7 LMM launcher?

Good move. 5 and 7 has only a little difference. Zero vs 5 differs infinitely. :D

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Timmymagic »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Looks like it is directly "re-using" the 5 missile Wildcat's launcher, and not newly designed 7 LMM launcher?
Looks like the major change to the tubes is that the cover of the missile no longer 'pops' off when the gas builds up, instead being retained. Good sense on a aerial platform. This will also be very useful on the DS30M installation on the QE Class as it means no FOD.

User avatar
SKB
Senior Member
Posts: 7931
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:35
England

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by SKB »


(Thales) 3rd July 2019
Thales proves its Lightweight Multirole Missile's precision strike capability in protecting vital assets and service crew at sea by defeating naval threats at recent firings trials.
Thales LMM brochure (PDF) : https://t.co/qDKiVHNt8z

cyrilranch
Member
Posts: 96
Joined: 01 May 2015, 11:36
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by cyrilranch »

SKB wrote:
(Thales) 3rd July 2019
Thales proves its Lightweight Multirole Missile's precision strike capability in protecting vital assets and service crew at sea by defeating
IMG_20190716_172211.jpg
naval threats at recent firings trials.
Thales LMM brochure (PDF) : https://t.co/qDKiVHNt8z
Fitted to Hms Sutherland and firing tests.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Lord Jim »

Should become a standard fit on all RN vessels. It is an elegant solution to dealing with small boats and even UAVs and very cost effective. Now we need to just fit the RFA with a couple of these mounts as well.

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 2784
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Post by Caribbean »

Lord Jim wrote:Should become a standard fit on all RN vessels. It is an elegant solution to dealing with small boats and even UAVs and very cost effective. Now we need to just fit the RFA with a couple of these mounts as well.
And perhaps, the B2 Rivers, if they are to have a genuinely world-wide role - it seems like a logical upgrade to all existing 30mm mounts. Now if we can also develop a point-defence variant.... :D
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

Post Reply