UK Defence Forum

News, History, Discussions and Debates on UK Defence.

Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.
marktigger
Senior Member
Posts: 4599
Joined: 01 May 2015, 10:22
Location: United Kingdom

Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby marktigger » 07 Jun 2015, 11:43

As part of the wildcat program this multirole missile will the army wildcats get them as Antitank missiles?
Can they be launched from Starstreak(HVM) Aimer units and Multi launchers?

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5769
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby shark bait » 07 Jun 2015, 18:29

marktigger wrote:As part of the wildcat program this multirole missile will the army wildcats get them as Antitank missiles?
Can they be launched from Starstreak(HVM) Aimer units and Multi launchers?


It is the same size and both are laser beam riding so im pretty sure they could use the same launchers. It ould be good so see this as the common go to light weapon across the forces, I would hope the army uses it, (more bang for your buck!) UAV operation should be included in the scope as well.

There is a special forces version of the wildcat too but I dont remember if that has Marlet included.
@LandSharkUK

marktigger
Senior Member
Posts: 4599
Joined: 01 May 2015, 10:22
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby marktigger » 07 Jun 2015, 19:16

its to late for anti tank with Javelin sewing that up. However light multilauncher on an OPV would be an interesting force multiplier

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5769
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby shark bait » 07 Jun 2015, 20:03

marktigger wrote:its to late for anti tank with Javelin sewing that up.


Air launched?

However light multilauncher on an OPV would be an interesting force multiplier


Agreed, if it could be a cheap bolt on system like phalanx, then it may be useful if fast attack craft are expected.
@LandSharkUK

arfah
Senior Member
Posts: 2364
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 19:02
Location: Niue
Contact:

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby arfah » 07 Jun 2015, 21:11

-<>-<>-<>-
-<>-<>-<>-

Why this forum is pish!

1: Ineffective moderators
2: Too many fantasists ruining dedicated equipment threads with notions of what gun/mortar/artillery/missiles the equipment should have because it makes their panties moist.

User avatar
The Armchair Soldier
Site Admin
Posts: 1477
Joined: 29 Apr 2015, 08:31
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby The Armchair Soldier » 11 Jun 2015, 11:29

Found some amazing footage of LMM being tested:



Shows some firings from BAE Fury.

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5769
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby shark bait » 11 Jun 2015, 12:21

The Armchair Soldier wrote:Found some amazing footage of LMM being tested:

Shows some firings from BAE Fury.


Nice video, I thinks that's the first if seen of martlet. I was suprised to see the fury on there but its good to see a UAV has some consideration.

It would be good to see market on watchkeeper. Poland is investing in a free fall variant from watchkeeper, so it would be great if we could use both free fall, and powered on our platforms.

Weight is the biggest issue though. Watchkeeper is qouted to have a reasonable payload but does this include or exclude all of its sensors ? If it doesn't the above is certainly feasible .
@LandSharkUK

Ron5
Senior Member
Posts: 3508
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
Location: United States of America

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby Ron5 » 11 Jun 2015, 22:34

As long as Putin comes calling in a bunch of Ford Transits & rubber boats....

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5769
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby shark bait » 11 Jun 2015, 23:00

Ron5 wrote:As long as Putin comes calling in a bunch of Ford Transits & rubber boats....


Well that's pretty much what ISIS use.

It seems alot to use a £100,000 Brimstone (+delivery) to blow up a £1,000 pick up truck.
@LandSharkUK

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 3212
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Location: Japan

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 05 Jul 2019, 13:42

Royal Marines unleash new Lightweight Multirole Missile (LMM) system

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... GmROR43gtQ

User avatar
RichardIC
Member
Posts: 538
Joined: 10 May 2015, 16:59
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby RichardIC » 05 Jul 2019, 14:30

I had no idea before this video started doing the rounds that there was a MANPAD version.

User avatar
RichardIC
Member
Posts: 538
Joined: 10 May 2015, 16:59
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby RichardIC » 05 Jul 2019, 16:10

Just realised that link doesn't contain the video


NickC
Member
Posts: 497
Joined: 01 Sep 2017, 14:20
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby NickC » 05 Jul 2019, 17:31

RN press release states Martlet (LMM) has >6 km range, half the speed (Mach ~1.6) of the Starstreak (HVM) >7 km range, the lighter Martlet can be fired from a small shoulder launcher and the operator guides it using a joystick which controls a laser beam on which the missile flies, said to give greater accuracy than Starstreak as operator has more time with joystick to target drone/aircraft.

Comment implies that Starstreak needs an upgraded joystick/guidance system so as to be better able to target missiles/aircraft.

Any thoughts why Starstreak never adopted by RN in its AAW role in preference to the ~1.5 km short range Phalanx, French have continued to develop the similar Mistral and only recently funded new SPIMM ship launcher, previously used the six missile SADRAL ship launcher.

mr.fred
Member
Posts: 677
Joined: 06 May 2015, 22:53
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby mr.fred » 05 Jul 2019, 18:18

NickC wrote:
Any thoughts why Starstreak never adopted by RN in its AAW role in preference to the ~1.5 km short range Phalanx,

I would hazard that it’s because phalanx is an anti-missile system and HVM isn’t.

User avatar
Gabriele
Senior Member
Posts: 1949
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:53
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby Gabriele » 05 Jul 2019, 18:41

HVM can also be shoulder-launched, although you don't see that so often.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

Arma Pacis Fulcra.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 3276
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby Lord Jim » 05 Jul 2019, 23:01

The Army's three round pedestal launcher for the HVM could be useful on small RN vessels and RFAs, especially if adapted to fire the LMM.

User avatar
RichardIC
Member
Posts: 538
Joined: 10 May 2015, 16:59
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby RichardIC » 06 Jul 2019, 10:02

Lord Jim wrote:The Army's three round pedestal launcher for the HVM could be useful on small RN vessels and RFAs, especially if adapted to fire the LMM.


Wouldn’t want to be guiding a missile from an exposed pedestal on a moving vessel in filthy weather with a heavy swell. Rather have one of these:

Image

Timmymagic
Senior Member
Posts: 1316
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby Timmymagic » 06 Jul 2019, 12:09

NickC wrote:RN press release states Martlet (LMM) has >6 km range, half the speed (Mach ~1.6) of the Starstreak (HVM) >7 km range, the lighter Martlet can be fired from a small shoulder launcher and the operator guides it using a joystick which controls a laser beam on which the missile flies, said to give greater accuracy than Starstreak as operator has more time with joystick to target drone/aircraft.

Comment implies that Starstreak needs an upgraded joystick/guidance system so as to be better able to target missiles/aircraft.


I think that statement on the RM release is wrong. LMM is using the same Control Unit as Starstreak which uses SACLOS. LMM/Martlet is a development of the Starburst, which itself was a development of Javelin, which itself was a development of Blowpipe. Blowpipe used joystick control, and as a result was incredibly hard to use or hit anything with as its combat performance in the Falklands proved. Consequently Javelin was developed with SACLOS to resolve these issues. And thats why its rare to see Starstreak, Starburst or LMM fired from the shoulder instead of the tripod mount. Its far easier to track a target using the sight from a mount than the shoulder.

I find the idea that LMM/Martlet have reverted to this prehistoric, failed control method, and thus necessitated entirely new CLU's very, very unlikely. Think its a mistake in the press release.

NickC wrote:Any thoughts why Starstreak never adopted by RN in its AAW role in preference to the ~1.5 km short range Phalanx, French have continued to develop the similar Mistral and only recently funded new SPIMM ship launcher, previously used the six missile SADRAL ship launcher.


It was proposed as a CIWS replacement for Phalanx on a large mount (rather like the Aselsan mount further down on this page) some years ago (back in the GCS days). It would have made a fantastic CIWS. I suspect for the RN the relative prevalence of Goalkeeper, Phalanx and Sea Wolf at the time made the idea moot. I think its something we should revisit, but in a slightly different way.

Lord Jim wrote:The Army's three round pedestal launcher for the HVM could be useful on small RN vessels and RFAs, especially if adapted to fire the LMM.


How about this...sadly no longer on MSI's product catalogue. But I'm sure they'd resurrect it if asked nicely. RN standard DS30M mount with RN standard 30mm Bushmaster, with the addition of 7 x LMM mounted along side. I don't expect it would be beyond the wit of man to mount Starstreak on it...it already has E/O sighting systems. Suddenly every RN vessel armed with a DS30M becomes a whole lot more potent...add in a couple of radar panels from the lovely people at Blighter and you have yourselves a multi-purpose mount that doubles as a CIWS. I'd imagine for the MCMV vessels it would be a particularly welcome upgrade if they're operating near potentially hostile shores.
Oh and all made in the UK...with the exception of the 30mm cannon..

https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/a-ship-t ... awk-sigma/

Timmymagic
Senior Member
Posts: 1316
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby Timmymagic » 06 Jul 2019, 18:29

Here's a 3D Model of the proposed SeaStreak. Lots more information at the Secret Projects site (you may need to register to be able to open the images up).



SeaStreak was proposed in 1986! 24 missiles....would have been an incredible CIWS then and now. More engagements than Phalanx at a far greater range and speed (and hit probability). And you could reload all 24 missiles by hand far quicker than reloading a Phalanx...

There's also a far simpler 6 missile manual mount, the Naval Missile Launcher...have to wonder how good that would be without some form of stabilisation. And we could have had these close to 30 years ago....admittedly with Javelin then Starburst but...

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/thread ... rads.6477/

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 3276
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby Lord Jim » 06 Jul 2019, 21:07

I wonder how this system would compare to todays the US/German RAM system? The Idea of adding six or more LMM to the RN's 30mm mounts seems a very low cost option that would greatly increase their utility as well as being a useful addition to an RFA, fitted when needed of course. Adopting the LMM or even Starstreak as a CIWS to replace or compliment the Phalanx again makes sense. I wonder if we could integrate the same six round launcher mentioned above onto a Phalanx mount? Now that would give us a similar system to what the Russians are using, though more compact and not requiring the deck to be penetrated.

Timmymagic
Senior Member
Posts: 1316
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby Timmymagic » 07 Jul 2019, 23:49

Lord Jim wrote:I wonder how this system would compare to todays the US/German RAM system?


Not really comparable. It's a significantly smaller missile with a lot shorter range. But as

Lord Jim wrote:The Idea of adding six or more LMM to the RN's 30mm mounts seems a very low cost option that would greatly increase their utility as well as being a useful addition to an RFA, fitted when needed of course.


Absolutely. Suddenly any DS30 mount goes from being a decent short range defence against surface targets with a range of 2km max to a multi-purpose mount with capability out to 8km against surface or air targets.

Lord Jim wrote:Adopting the LMM or even Starstreak as a CIWS to replace or compliment the Phalanx again makes sense.


I think it would make sense as a compliment when onboard ships already fitted, but for ships that have no other major weapon system it would dramatically increase their defensive capability. With proliferation of UAV's I think its just a matter of time before we have to embrace something like this (just look at the Houthi loitering munitions..)

Lord Jim wrote:I wonder if we could integrate the same six round launcher mentioned above onto a Phalanx mount?


There have been some studies of mounting laser weapons on the side of Phalanx mounts as well as the gun so clearly the mount is capable of handling additional loads. Personally I'd rather see a development on a larger calibre weapon like the non-deck penetrating 40mm CTA naval mount that the French are working on. 20mm really has had its day.

NickC
Member
Posts: 497
Joined: 01 Sep 2017, 14:20
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby NickC » 15 Jul 2019, 14:09



Thales video of the LMM ground firing trials in February/March from the same launcher and with the same sensor ball that will be used to fire it from RN Wildcat helicopters.

The trials consisted of six LMMs being fired from the Thales-designed launcher system at a small boat target at sea at a distance of 4.5kms. All missiles were test rounds with no warhead, but were fitted with telemetry software enabling data to be gathered to analyse the launcher, the guidance system and missile performance.

The successful achievement of the ground firings is a major milestone and key to progressing to future testing including air firing trials later in 2019 and culminating in qualification and verification in 2020.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... arget.html

RetroSicotte
Site Admin
Posts: 2430
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby RetroSicotte » 15 Jul 2019, 14:26

I'd be very curious to know how powerful that shaped charge is. Right now it's not being seen as an AT missile, but it could be a darkhorse threat.

PapaGolf
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: 13 Jun 2017, 21:43
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby PapaGolf » 15 Jul 2019, 17:41

RetroSicotte wrote:I'd be very curious to know how powerful that shaped charge is. Right now it's not being seen as an AT missile, but it could be a darkhorse threat.


I definitely think there's some additional utility in LMM that needs explored.

Comparing it to other AT missiles that are man guided and with a fairly flat trajectory, warhead weight is (from wiki):
LMM - 3kg
Tow - 4-6kg
Milan - not stated but total missile weight is 16.4KG
AT-5 Spandrel - 2.7kg
AT-14 Spriggan - 4.6kg - 10kg depending on version

Javelin has an 8KG warhead.


LMM might not be a tank killer but would be useful against lightly armoured vehicles, bunkers and structures.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 3276
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Martlet/Lightweight multirole missile

Postby Lord Jim » 15 Jul 2019, 21:05

I wonder if the LMM will ever be used with the new AH-64E Apache Guardian. Adapting the wings so that two or three could be fitted where it was once planned to fit Singer or Starstreak would be an interesting idea. OF course you could always use the existing launcher, as planned for the Wildcat, to replace one or more of the existing weapon systems on the current four hardpoints.


Return to “Joint Service”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests