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F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.

How do you feel about the F-35B for the RN and RAF? (2 votes per member)

GOOD choice for the Royal Navy
116
45%
BAD choice for the Royal Navy
9
3%
Uncertain (RN)
13
5%
GOOD choice for the Royal Air Force
47
18%
BAD choice for the Royal Air Force
35
14%
Uncertain (RAF)
39
15%
 
Total votes: 259

RetroSicotte
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby RetroSicotte » 22 Mar 2019, 19:41

SW1 wrote:
RetroSicotte wrote:Now compare that with availability of each new generation of fighter during its first entry to service.

Until we know that level of comparison, these reports are pretty much just scaremongering without anything to show this is anything different from normal.


The marine declared IOC 4 years ago and Elgin afb began receiving its jets 8 years ago, with over 350 a/c delivered worldwide its not like it was just delivered last year.


Again I ask. Do we have comparisons to the availability rates of other planes from the same timeframe? There's a lot of things that have been very beneficial from this method of approach.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby topman » 22 Mar 2019, 20:15

From my experience its all familiar, yet at the same time because the issues are so familiar and predictable it's disappointing that it's happening again. But there we go.
It'll all come good in the future.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 22 Mar 2019, 20:31

SW1 wrote:The marine declared IOC 4 year
They declared it for a very reduced ... while not declaring the reduction ;) ... capability set
- done for A. legislative reasons, so that orders for more could go ahead (and so that "B" would not be cancelled altogether), and B. relating to the the one afore, the Alligator fleet was under threat and them not getting jets (=B's) flying off them, to make them self-contained in many types of Ops, would simply have killed the ship orders, too

This is a reverse snow-ball, and it speaks volumes of the USMC comms capability (LM & RN perhaps in supporting roles) that the past has not been unravelled
- may be the present and the near future has kept everyone occupied?
- that's a good strategy when auditors turn up: keep them busy, so that they can't find the "red thread" :D
topman wrote:the test and delivery phase ran side by side it was always going to end up like this for the first few years.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby SW1 » 22 Mar 2019, 20:54

But this is better than all the rest, that’s why we’re doing the buy American thing across the board there much better at this, it was the plane that would do things differently the last manned fighter. The deployment numbers from aircraft in fleet will be totally different to anything that’s gone before it’s been quoted across this board and further afield repeatedly especially in connections with planes on boats and yet it isn’t any different and in some cases worse.

A very hefty dose of reality is needed on this plane.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 23 Mar 2019, 01:36

SW1 wrote:hefty dose of reality is needed on this plane.

They are getting cheaper to buy
... and more expensive to run. I have not seen any numbers, promised for ALIS-NXT :?: Only what a fine programming effort it will be

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby SW1 » 27 Mar 2019, 17:57

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/lockhe ... xec-141511

Lockheed Martin Corp. expects it will take around 15 to 20 years to bring the cost per flight hour of the F-35 below fourth-generation fighter jets such as the F-16, the head of the F-35 program said on Feb. 27.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby RetroSicotte » 29 Mar 2019, 18:04

Image

Seem to be getting there nicely...

Makes it clear that maintenance is only one part of the puzzle, and that there are massive improvements in other ways.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 29 Mar 2019, 19:11

SW1 wrote:Lockheed Martin Corp. expects it will take around 15 to 20 years to bring the cost per flight hour of the F-35 below fourth-generation fighter jets such as the F-16, the head of the F-35 program said on Feb. 27.


For the UK that might not be that bad. We haven't run a cheap fighter bomber since the retirement of Jaguar. Typhoon was eye-wateringly expensive until the very recent partnership with BAE to reduce costs. If F-35's are marginally more expensive that F-16C/D to run, that means they're massively cheaper than Typhoon is/was.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby SW1 » 30 Mar 2019, 09:54

Well that depends what you’ve assumed your support cost to be when you costed the capability and if you need to find more from somewhere to meet the difference when there isn’t any.

Of course the SAR figures assumes the US will do a full buy of 2600 odd a/c... yet just this year the USAF said they need support costs to reduce by 40% from what they current are to what was forecast.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 30 Mar 2019, 10:33

SW1 wrote:yet just this year the USAF said they need support costs to reduce by 40% from what they current are to what was forecast.


Isn't the referenced Typhoon prgrm target -30%
= same ball park. The biggest significance of that being that the two have been independently (and both together with industry) assessed... so might even be achievable

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 05 Apr 2019, 11:12

Cheap slots, released by a buyer whose deposit was 'not accepted'?
"Washington is considering expanding F-35 sales to five new countries including Romania, Greece, and Poland, a Pentagon official said yesterday [Thursday]"
- India can have the carriers&harriers rerun: emals ; or rather "Bs"? for their "propper" carriers

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby SW1 » 05 Apr 2019, 18:08

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Cheap slots, released by a buyer whose deposit was 'not accepted'?
"Washington is considering expanding F-35 sales to five new countries including Romania, Greece, and Poland, a Pentagon official said yesterday [Thursday]"
- India can have the carriers&harriers rerun: emals ; or rather "Bs"? for their "propper" carriers


The India’s operate Russian equipment so f35 unlikely given the Turkish stance

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 05 Apr 2019, 23:21

SW1 wrote:India’s operate Russian equipment so f35 unlikely


I don't think you have read the bilateral agreements for sharing know-how/ hard tech
- it is all in place between Pentagon/ USN/ India
- no decisions... such normally flow from a fairly advanced design (=advanced enough to be costed)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby SW1 » 06 Apr 2019, 11:33

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
SW1 wrote:India’s operate Russian equipment so f35 unlikely


I don't think you have read the bilateral agreements for sharing know-how/ hard tech
- it is all in place between Pentagon/ USN/ India
- no decisions... such normally flow from a fairly advanced design (=advanced enough to be costed)


The Indians are buying s-400, I haven’t read your document but does it explain why they won’t sell it to a nato member acquiring said system while they will sell it to a non nato member with the same system not to mention many other Russian radar systems.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 06 Apr 2019, 12:28

SW1 wrote: expanding F-35 sales to five new countries including Romania, Greece, and Poland


Greece has s-300.
- they are on Crete, though

- originally they were destined not to Greece, but to the almost Greek 2/3s of Cyprus... would have changed the balance, and a big-power compromise (w/o loss of face, nor cash) was brokered

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 06 Apr 2019, 14:18

The S-300 were ordered and paid for by the Greek Cypriot Government for its own military which is separate form the main Greek Military. As pointed out after Turkey kicking up a fuss a deal was done and these were swapped with the S-300s were exchanges with the Greek Military for I believe Russian SA-8b which they had already bought. I am surprised Greece hasn't been more vocal about the Turkish purchase of the S-400, given it range and ability to cover a large area of Greek airspace.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 08 Apr 2019, 08:33


Phil Sayers
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Phil Sayers » 08 Apr 2019, 20:01

Certainly going to learn a lot training there what with an ongoing war nearby, an aggressive Russian airforce presence based scarcely 100 miles away and a couple of very sophisticated SAM systems continually attempting to track them from the moment they take off to the moment they touch down again. I suppose that training opportunity is some kind of silver lining to Russia significantly altering the military balance of power in the Middle East leaving the West with no response save for a weary shrug of the shoulders.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 08 Apr 2019, 22:33

They will probably follow US practice and make the planes less stealthy so anyone watching will not get to see they F-35s true capabilities.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Ron5 » 09 Apr 2019, 01:31

I expect the RAF to say they've done their one away deployment and are too tired to go on QE until they've had a couple years rest at the local.

:-)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 09 Apr 2019, 03:28

The navy needs to bring back the "Press Gang", to get the RAF aircrew on to the carrier and keep them there.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 09 Apr 2019, 05:30

Poiuytrewq wrote:https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... first-time

Phil Sayers wrote:Certainly going to learn a lot training there what with an ongoing war nearby, an aggressive Russian airforce presence based scarcely 100 miles away and a couple of very sophisticated SAM systems continually attempting to track them


There could be even more opportunities if they are mistaken for Israeli Adirs. This https://greece.greekreporter.com/2018/0 ... -dogfight/ happened in January but a few years back was going on between Israeli and Turkish jets to the South of Cyprus (where Turkey is/ was trying to bully the offshore gas development efforts and Israeli interests are participants).

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby NickC » 12 Apr 2019, 12:39

USN and Marines planning on slowing down procurement of F-35Bs and F-35Cs, only planning to buy 10 Bs and 20 Cs in next five years between FY2020 and FY2024, partially to fund Block 4 / Continuous Capabilities Development and Delivery, C2D2 will cost the Department of the Navy $806.6M in RDT&E just in FY2020, not mentioned were the C2D2 follow-on costs to FY2024.

“Quite frankly, some of the reduction in aircraft were to pay bills. Some of them were to get wholeness in certain weapons systems: F-35 C2D2 Block 4, it came with a bill we had to pay” Rear Adm. Scott Conn, the air warfare director on the chief of naval operations’ staff (OPNAV N98).

From <https://news.usni.org/2019/04/11/f-35-software-upgrade-program-will-field-capabilities-sooner-but-delay-purchase-of-new-fighters#more-43642>

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 12 Apr 2019, 22:53

NickC wrote: F-35 C2D2 Block 4
Certainly kept quiet as for how much the bill for us will be
- well, at least the first two dozen are pretty 'safe' from all that?

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Gabriele » 13 Apr 2019, 12:07

10 B and 20 C are the purchase for 2020 alone; someone on that site screwed up badly on the figure. There was a reduction from earlier plans over the 5 years, but it is something like 14 aircraft in total that get deferred, plus some Super Hornets as well. C2D2 played a part, but buying more ships, including 10 unmanned Corvette added at the last moment, has the most responsibility for that.
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