UK Defence Forum

News, History, Discussions and Debates on UK Defence.

F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.

How do you feel about the F-35B for the RN and RAF? (2 votes per member)

GOOD choice for the Royal Navy
127
44%
BAD choice for the Royal Navy
12
4%
Uncertain (RN)
14
5%
GOOD choice for the Royal Air Force
54
19%
BAD choice for the Royal Air Force
39
13%
Uncertain (RAF)
43
15%
 
Total votes: 289

Scimitar54
Member
Posts: 899
Joined: 13 Jul 2015, 05:10
Location: United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Scimitar54 » 14 Nov 2020, 17:43

Perhaps a case of “Cart” and “Horse”! However, as we are likely to have GUEST aircraft on board when deploying in the short to medium term, it would be prudent in this case to put a sufficient number of “Carts” before the “Horses”. For “Carts” of course, read Parts and for “Horses” read F35B. :mrgreen:

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 13753
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 16 Nov 2020, 09:05

Timmymagic wrote:Have a look at my post on page 191 on the delivery schedule. There should be 18 at Marham by the end of the year. I think BK-03 and the 3 ITF aircraft are the 'non-carrier capable' aircraft. BK-03 is the one that will cost a lot of money to update to Blk.IV standard (still far cheaper than buying a replacement though).


Finally had time to take a peep of what the Delivering Carrier Strike report says about F-35s; among other things
"paragraph 1.16 of the NAO Report says: “The Department has increased the approval limit four times since we reported in 2017, an increase of £1.4 billion (15%).” Does that mean that when you said the cost was coming down, you were talking about the basic procurement of each jet?

Charlie Pate[MoD finance chief]: That is right, Mr Gardiner. The basic price of each jet is coming down, and that was what I was referring to, with the next three lots falling over 13%. May I explain the increase in that cost that is referred to in the Report?Q53

Barry Gardiner: I think it is explained in that paragraph, where it says: “It has a strategy of incremental acquisitions, and the approvals were for capability upgrades, integration of UK weapons and sustainment costs”. I presume the capability upgrades were to those jets, but the compatibility upgrades—the integration of UK weapons—were for those jets, so were you not playing with semantics when you said the cost has come down? "

Left unresolved in the gentlemanly discussion. Will just note that the percentage changes at unit and aggregate level are in line
... they just happen to be of opposite signs (rolling off the production line a "-" and in use +)

jonas
Member
Posts: 874
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 19:20

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby jonas » 17 Nov 2020, 14:20

Parliamentary written answers 17th Nov:-

https://questions-statements.parliament ... -09/113008

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 13753
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 17 Nov 2020, 15:14

Which year was it when we last saw such a clear answer: "Yes."

serge750
Member
Posts: 658
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:34

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby serge750 » 17 Nov 2020, 18:27

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: well we did have a blue moon last month

User avatar
Old RN
Member
Posts: 216
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 19:39
Location: South Africa

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Old RN » 21 Nov 2020, 06:29

There is a report (Mirror?) that the F35B order will be capped at 69. That could make sense as it could mean 4 frontline squadrons (4x12), an OCU and deep maintenance squadron of 18 and the 3 development a/c in USA?
Then you have two squadrons assigned to the deployed carrier, one squadron for the carrier in the home waters and one reserve?

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2392
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
Location: United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby dmereifield » 21 Nov 2020, 08:24

Old RN wrote:There is a report (Mirror?) that the F35B order will be capped at 69. That could make sense as it could mean 4 frontline squadrons (4x12), an OCU and deep maintenance squadron of 18 and the 3 development a/c in USA?
Then you have two squadrons assigned to the deployed carrier, one squadron for the carrier in the home waters and one reserve?


Would be somewhat of a relief if we end up with as many as 69, but it of course depends on the timeframe. If we manage to get 4 frontline squadrons concurrently available that certainly would be a pleasant surprise and give us a realistic chance of being able to deploy a decent airwing (ca. 20 UK F35B) on a regular basis

User avatar
Repulse
Senior Member
Posts: 2475
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
Location: United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Repulse » 21 Nov 2020, 08:36

I’m wondering if a deal has been done to cap the F35b to match CEPP requirements only, ensuring all a/c will be dedicated to the carriers, with the promise of future Tempest jam to the RAF. TBH, that would be a bigger win for the RN/FAA than give or take a few airframes.

Personally, I think a 3 x 18 a/c first line squadron model would be optimal - rotating each and having the ability to provide a 36 a/c surge relatively quickly.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

Aethulwulf
Senior Member
Posts: 1025
Joined: 23 Jul 2016, 22:46
Location: United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Aethulwulf » 21 Nov 2020, 09:09

If it is capped at 69, that would most likely mean just 3 front line squadrons of 12, plus an OCU of 12.
Other 12 aircraft would be in deep maintenance and 6 war reserves/replacements + the 3 test aircraft.

To operate 4 front line squadrons, the total number would need to be around 80 to 90 aircraft.

serge750
Member
Posts: 658
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:34

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby serge750 » 21 Nov 2020, 18:40

[quote="Repulse"]I’m wondering if a deal has been done to cap the F35b to match CEPP requirements only, ensuring all a/c will be dedicated to the carriers, with the promise of future Tempest jam to the RAF. TBH, that would be a bigger win for the RN/FAA than give or take a few airframes.

It does sound plausible it would be so good for the RN plus the RAF could come to the rescue when a surge is needed :D :D win win

Would the F35's last till the end of the QEC life span?

I would really like to see after the 69 (?) are bought a couple more bought every year to replace the early ones & keep up to date with the latest mods & then you can work them really hard without having to worry too much about the harshness of life at sea, bit expensive but whats a 150m in the MOD budget and may placate the USA as we committed to buy 138

User avatar
2HeadsBetter
Member
Posts: 156
Joined: 12 Dec 2015, 16:21
Location: United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby 2HeadsBetter » 21 Nov 2020, 18:44

"Would the F35's last till the end of the QEC life span?" - Depends when you buy them!

topman
Member
Posts: 452
Joined: 07 May 2015, 20:56
Location: Tokelau

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby topman » 21 Nov 2020, 21:43

At the risk of being a broken record, it's not so much the total number but how many we are prepared to support on deployment that will matter.
That's where the real costs come in.

serge750
Member
Posts: 658
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:34

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby serge750 » 21 Nov 2020, 23:19

Was hoping with the support for "Global Britain" the powers that be, may support routine deployments of 24 (UK) x F35 on the QEC deployments, hence using them hard & buying a few more regularly to replace the hardest used/early ones, but as you say if they do not commit to the carrier group then ….

Jdam
Member
Posts: 345
Joined: 09 May 2015, 22:26
Location: United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Jdam » 21 Nov 2020, 23:34

I think 12 will be the standard amount on the carriers.

Interesting if you think about it, the f-35 line will be open for decades to come, this might make some people think we can run our numbers close to the limit and buy more later if needed. In a sense kicking the costs further down the line.

Online
seaspear
Senior Member
Posts: 1549
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 20:16
Location: Australia

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby seaspear » 22 Nov 2020, 00:29

On a forty-year lfe span of the carriers which are much longer than the flying hours for the f35b if you replace at end of life the aircraft with a similar replacement f35b you could end up with the original number of aircraft as discussed of 148 to maintain that capability for the aircraft carrier

Scimitar54
Member
Posts: 899
Joined: 13 Jul 2015, 05:10
Location: United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Scimitar54 » 22 Nov 2020, 01:38

Two points

1) The Carriers have an expected 50 year lifespan (not 40).
2) The original agreed number of F35B was 138 (not 148).

Online
seaspear
Senior Member
Posts: 1549
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 20:16
Location: Australia

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby seaspear » 22 Nov 2020, 02:24

Scimitar54 wrote:Two points

1) The Carriers have an expected 50 year lifespan (not 40).
2) The original agreed number of F35B was 138 (not 148).

I stand corrected

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 4711
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 22 Nov 2020, 16:02

I think, like other that 12 is going to he the standard number of F-35Bs operating from our active Carrier. These will routinely be supplemented either by additional UK aircraft or detachments for other allied operators of the F-35B. IF an emergency high intensity conflict arises, like in the Falklands War an additional Squadron could be formed for the OCU, stored aircraft, with aircrew coming from the former as well as students who have completed most of the course.

Scimitar54
Member
Posts: 899
Joined: 13 Jul 2015, 05:10
Location: United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Scimitar54 » 23 Nov 2020, 01:34

To rely on OCU pilots and planes to form a second front line (Carrier) squadron is total folly as a plan. If the deployment (or deployments) become protracted with perhaps some losses, then the means of training additional pilots WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE! :mrgreen:

Online
seaspear
Senior Member
Posts: 1549
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 20:16
Location: Australia

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby seaspear » 23 Nov 2020, 07:27

In regard to the number of aircraft carried aboard the carrier it could be
in the future or under development that a number of u.a.v.,s will be launched to accompany the f35b and controlled by such
https://www.businessinsider.com/drones- ... ?r=AU&IR=T
this earlier article did not provide details of the mission capability aimed for with this type of aircraft ,the discussions have always been on the numbers of the f35b and rotary units but not the possibility of how many uav,s may also be included not forgetting, of course, we don't know how large such a craft would be and its footprint on the carrier

Ron5
Senior Member
Posts: 4956
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
Location: United States of America

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Ron5 » 23 Nov 2020, 15:12

seaspear wrote:In regard to the number of aircraft carried aboard the carrier it could be
in the future or under development that a number of u.a.v.,s will be launched to accompany the f35b and controlled by such
https://www.businessinsider.com/drones- ... ?r=AU&IR=T
this earlier article did not provide details of the mission capability aimed for with this type of aircraft ,the discussions have always been on the numbers of the f35b and rotary units but not the possibility of how many uav,s may also be included not forgetting, of course, we don't know how large such a craft would be and its footprint on the carrier


Loyal wingman.

Scimitar54
Member
Posts: 899
Joined: 13 Jul 2015, 05:10
Location: United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Scimitar54 » 23 Nov 2020, 16:09

Whether Manned or Unmanned, a Loyal Wingman is required. :mrgreen:

Online
seaspear
Senior Member
Posts: 1549
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 20:16
Location: Australia

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby seaspear » 23 Nov 2020, 19:43

Loyal wingman as I understand takes off a conventional runway,the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carriers with their ramps would likely require something very different

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 4711
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 23 Nov 2020, 20:53

Scimitar54 wrote:To rely on OCU pilots and planes to form a second front line (Carrier) squadron is total folly as a plan. If the deployment (or deployments) become protracted with perhaps some losses, then the means of training additional pilots WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE!

Read the post, the OCU assets would be used to form an add hoc third operational squadron in an emergency.

Scimitar54
Member
Posts: 899
Joined: 13 Jul 2015, 05:10
Location: United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Scimitar54 » 23 Nov 2020, 21:43

My comments are still valid and stand on their own merit. :mrgreen:


Return to “Joint Service”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: downsizer, seaspear and 10 guests