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F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.

How do you feel about the F-35B for the RN and RAF? (2 votes per member)

GOOD choice for the Royal Navy
122
44%
BAD choice for the Royal Navy
11
4%
Uncertain (RN)
14
5%
GOOD choice for the Royal Air Force
53
19%
BAD choice for the Royal Air Force
38
14%
Uncertain (RAF)
40
14%
 
Total votes: 278

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RetroSicotte
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby RetroSicotte » 05 Feb 2020, 11:17

dmereifield wrote:Are we not susceptible to the same?

Note quite. Western doctrine doesn't rely on giant walls of SAMs pointing in given directions, but on air superiority. That gives you the initiative to be the one launching from an active, moving location at the static, known areas. In theory yes a Patriot battery could be baited, but the effect is much more minimalised as the greater force isn't relying on it. SAMs to western forces are more specific in nature than the mass wealth of "create a wall of air defence" we seen from the OPFOR end.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby sunstersun » 11 Feb 2020, 06:34

On talking ordnance for the F-35 and what not. Roughly 2 A2A missiles will hit the US market in the next couple of years.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-260_JATM


Steep competition coming for the Meteor. Also the Peregrine, which is like the AMRAAM but half the size.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... aiting-for

In combination with Lockheed's sidekick program, we could have 12 A2A missiles held internally on a F-35. Beast mode could plausibly carry 28+ A2A missiles lol.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby sunstersun » 11 Feb 2020, 06:39

The most impressive ordnance export I've seen is Norway's NSM. It's already been bought by the USN and being considered for F-35's and frigates etc.

Incredible stuff coming from a country Norway's size.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 11 Feb 2020, 08:27

Looking at the AIM-260 it has some interesting capabilities it seems. Foremost is the dual seeker, both Radar and Imaging Infra Red. Maybe we should investigate such a thing if the joint project with Japan to improve Meteor gets going?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 11 Feb 2020, 14:27

sunstersun wrote:Incredible stuff coming from a country Norway's size


Well, Penguin was a global std (with SS 11 and 12 as the poor runner-ups).

The fact is that who cannot invade Norway by sea will be poorly placed to try it by land (but the two together...)
- call that an 'incentive'?

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 11 Feb 2020, 14:30

sunstersun wrote:Steep competition coming for the Meteor.


Not really, by the time it arrives and is available for export it will be too late for most users. Meteor has got most of Europe nailed down as users already, add in Persian Gulf and Med countries, South Korea and Japan. Integration of Meteor to F-35 will increase that group, then add in the JNAAM development with AESA seeker c2025 and Meteor has a very strong future ahead of it. The US stranglehold on Medium-Long range missile sales in the 'West' that Sparrow and Amraam gave has been shattered.

sunstersun wrote:The most impressive ordnance export I've seen is Norway's NSM. It's already been bought by the USN and being considered for F-35's and frigates etc.


Norway has some form in the AShM market with Penguin. But NSM is the surface launched variant, JSM is the fast jet variant and they are different. The Norwegians were smart and demanded the US go halves with them on integration to F-35, and that it was scheduled in (for Block 4) as the price of Norway becoming an F-35 user. Both have sold 'reasonably' well, but its been out there for 15 years now and hasn't actually set the world on fire. Only 2 JSM users are confirmed: Norway and Japan. For NSM Norway use it, Poland has some ground launched variants. The US order is a big deal, but isn't actually colossal.

Basically it is a success at present, but its not a runaway success by any stretch.

Lord Jim wrote:Looking at the AIM-260 it has some interesting capabilities it seems. Foremost is the dual seeker, both Radar and Imaging Infra Red. Maybe we should investigate such a thing if the joint project with Japan to improve Meteor gets going?


MBDA have looked at dual IR/Radar seekers for decades now, their most recent look at future weapons includes dual mode AAM's. I wouldn't be surprised if the JNAAM work isn't looking at it in conjunction with an AESA seeker. For Japan countering the J-20 and any future Chinese VLO platforms will be uppermost in their minds.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 11 Feb 2020, 15:15

Timmymagic wrote: The Norwegians were smart and demanded the US go halves with them on integration to F-35, and that it was scheduled in (for Block 4) as the price of Norway becoming an F-35 user.
Yes, the price of becoming the first quantity order... but not exactly halves (as LM is doing the costing and then the PMO is doing 'the buying'; Norway wanted to make sure that there would be no short-changing in future negotiations and the JSM integration is a state-on-state agreement... into which the Pentagon paid a whole ( 8-) ) $ 20mln. The point was that such agreements can't (easily) be reneged upon

Timmymagic wrote: a success at present, but its not a runaway success by any stretch

- going forward, by ten years as and when the intl F-35 deliveries pick up: what else is there for serious (stealthy and multiple impact from differing angles) anti-ship missions?

Timmymagic wrote:MBDA have looked at dual IR/Radar seekers for decades now, their most recent look at future weapons includes dual mode AAM's.

- goodiegoodie, as one of the reasons why Russian fighters (save for Mig-35) are so big has been their lacking skills in minituriasation and, hence, the ' tactics' have been to fire 'volleys' of missiles with both seeker methods

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 11 Feb 2020, 15:46

ArmChairCivvy wrote:- going forward, by ten years as and when the intl F-35 deliveries pick up: what else is there for serious (stealthy and multiple impact from differing angles) anti-ship missions?


LRASM. Which appears to have gone ahead of the JSM in the Australian competition. Particularly with the recently announced work to integrate with P-8 announced. That means all 3 Australian platforms (F-35A, P-8 and FA-18E/F) will have the ability to carry the same munition (and JASSM/ER as well). For the US they'll have F-35A/B/C, P-8, B-1B and FA-18E/F. Which covers them pretty much conclusively, in addition to Harpoon platforms.

With JSM integration on P-8 totally silent at present, it looks like JSM may only have Norway and Japan in the bag for sales. The big question is if it can land any more? Poland, who already use NSM, are a good prospect, but then they also use JASSM. Denmark, South Korea, Singapore, Italy and the UK are the remaining prospects in order of probability (and the UK and Italy are distant ones). I can't see other F-35 users having a requirement. If Finland buys F-35A as part of the HX requirement its possible, but then, like Poland, they also use JASSM.

I should add that LRASM is dramatically more expensive than JSM...

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 11 Feb 2020, 17:08

Timmymagic wrote:should add that LRASM is dramatically more expensive than JSM...
:)
- offensive counter air? Better risk missiles than planes... price 'no object'
- sink ships, many, of varying 'value'. Some of which have sophisticated defences. Yes, unit price does matter

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 11 Feb 2020, 17:48

Timmymagic wrote:UK are the remaining prospects in order of probability (and the UK and Italy are distant ones)


I should add, to put some focus on the UK aspect that I would be in favour of a very small JSM buy, but not LRASM. JSM would close a gap for AShM from the QE Class, but would also provide a longer ranged, stand off, heavier weapon capability at a reasonable cost (based on what we know the NSM costs). But LRASM? Timelines for integration to F-35 and P-8 put it far too close to FCASW, not just for anti-shipping but it would also open the door wide for an JASSM-ER purchase. We shouldn't be sacrificing a hard won (and expensive) progression in the air weapons space for a short term advantage. A small buy of 50 JSM wouldn't do that. I'd take the lack of compatibility with Typhoon and P-8 (at present, at least they'll have Harpoon) on the chin.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 11 Feb 2020, 20:16

Timmymagic wrote: A small buy of 50 JSM wouldn't do that. I'd take the lack of compatibility with Typhoon and P-8 (at present, at least they'll have Harpoon) on the chin.

Yes, we would have the interim (ships, P-8) and the interim-interim (F-35, esp. carrier-borne)
- sub-launched Tomahawk will not be around for ever
- there has been talk about JSM slotting into that role, as well. To the 2019 DSEI Kongsberg brought photographs about the fit of their missile in a standard torpedo tube... and this announcement:
"a submarine-launched version, the NSM-SL. It attracts the interest of the German Navy, which is progressing with evaluating its integration in the next generation of submarines – 212CD (Common Design) – to be built for both the German and Royal Norwegian Navies. The development schedule for NSM to cope with both countries‘ requirements for a surface ship- and submarine-launched missile has been accelerated following the announcement by the countries’ Ministries of Defence (MoDs) in February 2017 to extend naval cooperation from submarines to anti-surface missiles. Kongsberg Defence and Aerospace confirmed in May 2017 that for NSM-SL it has conducted a feasibility study in cooperation with selected industry partners [Babcock is one of them... who is it again that maintains our subs ;) ] to illustrate the potential for a low-risk, affordable adaptation programme.

Meeting the German requirements for a submarine-launched anti-ship missile with land attack capability for the next generation of submarines, the NSM-SL offers a 200+km (>108nm) operational range."

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby SKB » 12 Feb 2020, 15:05

Image
^ ZM149/BK16

Image
^ZM145/BK11

Image
^ ZM145/BK11

Image
^ZM151/BK17

Image
^ ZM145/BK11 (left), and ZM151/BK17 (right)

Image

According to the registration list, the UK's nineteenth F-35B ZM153/BK19 is now on the production line and due into service in later 2020.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby jonas » 14 Feb 2020, 13:56

Lightnings complete "Red Flag" :-

Lightning Strikes on Red Flag
(Source: Royal Air Force; issued Feb 13, 2020)
UK Lightning Force has achieved the latest in a long line of milestones with the successful conclusion of Exercise Red Flag. 617 Squadron deployed five of the state-of-the-art stealth jets to spend three weeks at Nellis Air Force Base near Las Vegas to do battle in the best air combat exercise available anywhere.

“Our experience on Red Flag has been amazing. Lightning has performed really well in this exercise and I have also been really pleasantly surprised as to how everyone has performed in this environment, our team has done fantastically well,” said Officer Commanding 617 Squadron, Wing Commander John Butcher.

For the junior pilots on the squadron, most of whom have come to the Lightning direct from training, the sheer scale and complexity of Red Flag was potentially a daunting prospect. “There’s a natural tendency to be concerned about what that may entail when you’ve not had that exposure before” explained Wing Commander Butcher.

Some of the junior pilots had only rehearsed some of the events they’d be flying out on the Nellis Range in the simulator. “They’ve been getting airborne and going into a 40 versus 40 aircraft fight with Russian surface to air missiles looking at them and the whole thing has been incredibly exciting” said Group Captain Jim Beck, the RAF Marham Station Commander.

“But most importantly they will know whether they can crack it for real. What they’re finding is that the jet is performing at the top of its game with a set of sensors we’ve just never had access to before in UK Defence. These are fusing together and really proving why we’ve invested in this awesome capability,” said Group Captain Jim Beck, RAF Marham Station Commander.

Air Vice-Marshal Ian Duguid, Air Officer Commanding 11 Group said: “This is definitely a key milestone for Lightning. And it’s not just about the high-end aspect of what we’re doing in the air on the exercise, but also the ability to deploy virtually half way around the world with the capability to have all the right spares and support mechanisms in place to keep the aircraft and the crews going.

“That is a really important milestone and particularly so ahead of the future embarkations onto HMS Queen Elizabeth, the first of which starts in only a few months’ time.”

For one of the more experienced Lightning pilots the significance of the exercise was clear. “Taking Lightning to Red Flag for the first time is a major milestone. This is a brilliant opportunity for us. The size of the airspace, the numbers of aircraft and the simulated enemy air defence systems on the ground, you really get the opportunity to stretch the capability of this jet to the maximum possible extent.

He added, “The situational awareness you get with this aircraft and the ability you have to understand and control all the battlespace is amazing and light years ahead of anything I’ve ever flown and any capability we’ve had in the Air Force.

“The way information is presented to you through the helmet which gives you this 360-degree view of the battlespace is unparalleled, incredible, a massive leap from the Tornado GR4 I flew previously.”

-ends-

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Ron5 » 14 Feb 2020, 16:04

Thumbs up for RAF chief mentioning carrier deployments!

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby jonas » 15 Feb 2020, 09:16

SKB wrote:Image
^ ZM149/BK16

Image
^ZM145/BK11

Image
^ ZM145/BK11

Image
^ZM151/BK17

Image
^ ZM145/BK11 (left), and ZM151/BK17 (right)

Image

According to the registration list, the UK's nineteenth F-35B ZM153/BK19 is now on the production line and due into service in later 2020.


Should be two more to follow, as three aircraft are due for delivery this year.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Ron5 » 16 Feb 2020, 15:48

Almost a hangar full, getting giddy at the thought (sarcasm)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby serge750 » 16 Feb 2020, 16:00

Cheeky !!! :lol: :angel: any freebies gatefully received.... :D

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Ron5 » 16 Feb 2020, 17:38

serge750 wrote:Cheeky !!! :lol: :angel: any freebies gatefully received.... :D


There's a local website where folks have been complaining about the noise of the F-35's using Davis Monthan. I'm sure the authors would let you have a few just to keep the peace and quiet :D

Yes, it's the right type. Marine F-35B's flying in from Yuma.

Yes, they're bloody hypocrites, they bought their houses under the flight paths of a very active air station that practices with F-16's & A-10's every day of the week.

Yes, they tried advertising for more write ups from the folks around me. They were me with a barrage of "shut up, you're drowning out the sound of freedom", "we like the aircraft, we go out and watch when they fly by (we are on training flight routes)" etc.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby SKB » 16 Feb 2020, 20:53

"Why should we have to put up with living next door to the noise and pollution of an international airport that's been there for over 70 years?" - every Heathrow Airport neighbouring resident.
:mrgreen:

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby serge750 » 17 Feb 2020, 18:15

Used to get A10's & Tornado's over the house I grew up, Loved it so awesome to see them so low :clap: if i could i would buy a house near Marham or Yeovil :thumbup: :wave:


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