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Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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Tempest414
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby Tempest414 » 24 Mar 2019, 11:55

Could there be a 3 way update program with South Korea as well. Plus could NATO replace they E-3's with E-7

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby RetroSicotte » 24 Mar 2019, 12:27

RichardIC wrote:You can count to seven. You’ve shown that beyond any reasonable doubt.

Seems you missed my point entirely.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby RichardIC » 24 Mar 2019, 12:46

RetroSicotte wrote:Seems you missed my point entirely


Got it. Didn't agree with it.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 24 Mar 2019, 17:44

I must admit that I have a small hope that both the P-8 and E-7 programmes have, in the end, similarities with hoe the RAF purchased the C-17 regarding numbers. That is to say over time the respective fleets are increased by an aircraft here and an aircraft there when funding permits. This may allow the P-8 fleet to grow to twelve and the E-7 to six or more. Until they enter service and the workload is appreciated you never know.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby shark bait » 25 Mar 2019, 12:11

RetroSicotte wrote:that is still not the 6-7 that was intended. Thus, this is a cut vs the intended functionality of the fleet.


When I was at waddo there were 6 aircraft between 2 E-3 squadron's which enabled them to sustain operations in two regions.

That still sounds highly relevant today, for example patrols over the north of the UK looking out for Russians, and patrol out of Cyprus supporting the ground campaign.

However outside of counter insurgency operations will that single aircraft overseas be enough? I expect such a big gap in coverage will be unacceptable in combat with an air force.

5 E-7 will undoubtedly provide greater coverage than today's E-3 fleet, but it may be too small if we have to operate in 2 regions at a higher intensity than we have been used to over the last decade of totally permissive air power.
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 25 Mar 2019, 12:12

RichardIC wrote:I worry about how it’s being paid for. But the whole AAR issue can’t be kicked into the long grass anymore surely.


With the Airtanker PFI only running until 2035 its just not going to happen. We're not going to pay them for a capability that couldn't realistically be delivered until 2025 and then only get 10 years out of it. I'm sure the RAF will look to purchase the assets at the end of the PFI but the costs to amend the contract will be considerable. When it comes to AAR for the RAF the far more interesting question is what we're going to be doing for helicopter AAR for the Merlin and possibly the Chinook.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 25 Mar 2019, 12:15

Lord Jim wrote:I must admit that I have a small hope that both the P-8 and E-7 programmes have, in the end, similarities with hoe the RAF purchased the C-17 regarding numbers. That is to say over time the respective fleets are increased by an aircraft here and an aircraft there when funding permits. This may allow the P-8 fleet to grow to twelve and the E-7 to six or more. Until they enter service and the workload is appreciated you never know.


With such a small number of aircraft the cost of purchasing 1 or 2 additional examples once the 5 have been built will be so prohibitive that it just will not happen. We either get 6 or 7 now or not at all, that is unless another AF decides to purchase E-7 later (looking at you USAF..). But even then it would likely be a different standard to the rest, which again would make it nigh on impossible. P-8 is a different beast as the production line is still going and the UK appears to be getting US spec P-8. But even then it makes sense to order more whilst the line is hot.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby shark bait » 25 Mar 2019, 12:18

Lord Jim wrote: we need to learn the lessons for the E-3 fleet and ensure its replacement is properly maintained and it kept up to date.

The UK became comfortable with it's totally permissive air power over the desert so they could get away with scrimping on AEW. It's a good job the RAF haven't had to operate against another air force.
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby Tinman » 28 Mar 2019, 21:15

Which other Airforce has had to operate in a non permissive environment regarding, what you think the capabilities of AEW are?

Syria is very much a hostile area, parts of Iraq have been recently, all ground based threats and over Syria A2A threats.

Just because you don’t know of them does t mean it hasn’t happened.

If I was you I’d stick to fantasy fleet topics.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 29 Mar 2019, 02:35

I think you have misunderstood d the point being made. Because there was no air threat, the UK did feel the need to keep the E-3D current compared to what other users were doing. That was what was meant by permissive.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby shark bait » 29 Mar 2019, 08:02

Exactly, when was the last time the RAF encountered a hostile air force?
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby abc123 » 29 Mar 2019, 14:02

shark bait wrote:Exactly, when was the last time the RAF encountered a hostile air force?


Korea?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby RetroSicotte » 29 Mar 2019, 16:43

abc123 wrote:
shark bait wrote:Exactly, when was the last time the RAF encountered a hostile air force?


Korea?

Gulf War. May not have directly shot at them, but the Iraqi Air Force definitely needed worked around until it was dealt with, and the RAF was part of the collaborative effort in destroying them through means other than lobbing missiles.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby SW1 » 29 Mar 2019, 17:11

shark bait wrote:Exactly, when was the last time the RAF encountered a hostile air force?


How about every day over Syrian or maybe this morning intercepting blackjacks over the North Sea

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 29 Mar 2019, 20:22

If the question is "When did the RAF last face a peer Air Force during hostilities?", then we would really have to go back to WWII.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby Old RN » 30 Mar 2019, 07:18

Surely the last time the UK airforces (RN & RAF) faced an Airforce that credibly tried to shoot down UK aircraft was 1982?

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby cyrilranch » 30 Mar 2019, 08:06

Timmymagic wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:I must admit that I have a small hope that both the P-8 and E-7 programmes have, in the end, similarities with hoe the RAF purchased the C-17 regarding numbers. That is to say over time the respective fleets are increased by an aircraft here and an aircraft there when funding permits. This may allow the P-8 fleet to grow to twelve and the E-7 to six or more. Until they enter service and the workload is appreciated you never know.


With such a small number of aircraft the cost of purchasing 1 or 2 additional examples once the 5 have been built will be so prohibitive that it just will not happen. We either get 6 or 7 now or not at all, that is unless another AF decides to purchase E-7 later (looking at you USAF..). But even then it would likely be a different standard to the rest, which again would make it nigh on impossible. P-8 is a different beast as the production line is still going and the UK appears to be getting US spec P-8. But even then it makes sense to order more whilst the line is hot.


If we are getting green buit E7 plane, why can we get a green P8 plane and fit the E7 electronics to that one?

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby abc123 » 30 Mar 2019, 09:10

cyrilranch wrote:
Timmymagic wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:I must admit that I have a small hope that both the P-8 and E-7 programmes have, in the end, similarities with hoe the RAF purchased the C-17 regarding numbers. That is to say over time the respective fleets are increased by an aircraft here and an aircraft there when funding permits. This may allow the P-8 fleet to grow to twelve and the E-7 to six or more. Until they enter service and the workload is appreciated you never know.


With such a small number of aircraft the cost of purchasing 1 or 2 additional examples once the 5 have been built will be so prohibitive that it just will not happen. We either get 6 or 7 now or not at all, that is unless another AF decides to purchase E-7 later (looking at you USAF..). But even then it would likely be a different standard to the rest, which again would make it nigh on impossible. P-8 is a different beast as the production line is still going and the UK appears to be getting US spec P-8. But even then it makes sense to order more whilst the line is hot.


If we are getting green buit E7 plane, why can we get a green P8 plane and fit the E7 electronics to that one?


Good question.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby SW1 » 30 Mar 2019, 09:50

Because p8 an e7 are different a/c that share a common name. Sticking a big radar atop of p8 would require new engineering, an aerodynamic flight test campaign and re certification of the airframe and flight control software.

For all the platitudes this is seen as a low risk, low cost build to print with no added value to uk industrial base if that’s considered important or not it remains to be seen how it plays out.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby Mercator » 31 Mar 2019, 00:47

SW1 wrote:Because p8 an e7 are different a/c that share a common name. Sticking a big radar atop of p8 would require new engineering, an aerodynamic flight test campaign and re certification of the airframe and flight control software.

For all the platitudes this is seen as a low risk, low cost build to print with no added value to uk industrial base if that’s considered important or not it remains to be seen how it plays out.


Probably need to recalibrate the radar and ESM as well. It's not worth it for five airframes.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby SW1 » 31 Mar 2019, 12:42

Mercator wrote:
SW1 wrote:Because p8 an e7 are different a/c that share a common name. Sticking a big radar atop of p8 would require new engineering, an aerodynamic flight test campaign and re certification of the airframe and flight control software.

For all the platitudes this is seen as a low risk, low cost build to print with no added value to uk industrial base if that’s considered important or not it remains to be seen how it plays out.


Probably need to recalibrate the radar and ESM as well. It's not worth it for five airframes.


You would yes and the wing being different may cause some additional tweaking of other systems too.

It however depends on what you mean by worth it, Australia did when it bought 6 wedgetail originally will do it again, to a lesser extent when it buys it ew/sigint gulfstream as it will leverage experience from similar conversions, Israel has don’t it, India, Turkey, Sweden, Brazil, usaf E11 among other ,raf with sentinel that’s spawned many similar variants, uae, it’s a long list. All for small numbers of a/c if you do it properly with experienced contractors it’s quite worth it. It probably depends how much value you have in protecting you national istar sensors and collection assets and the company’s that build those sensors, the uk once did during the Cold War, but what started with R1s demise is now is almost complete for better or worse.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 31 Mar 2019, 19:28

Old RN wrote:Surely the last time the UK airforces (RN & RAF) faced an Airforce that credibly tried to shoot down UK aircraft was 1982?


Since WW2 we've had Korea, Israel (had a couple of aircraft shot down by the Israelis), Suez, the Konfrontasi with Indonesia, Falklands, GW1, Deny Flight, GW2, Ellamy plus others where hostile aircraft could have been/were encountered (Syria, Syrian forces over Lebanon in the 80's when Buccaneer were deployed to support UK forces). The fact that we've come out the other side pretty well is due to the fact that we've outclassed them, or at least scared them enough to back off.

Mind you all of the post Korea kills have been by the Fleet Air Arm though....

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 31 Mar 2019, 23:15

Korea doesn't really count as the only RAF aircraft involved were the old Sunderlands from Nos 88 and 209 Squadrons. The FAA was very much involved in combat with numerous carriers being rotated through the theatre operating Seafires, Sea Furies and Fireflies. Other Commonwealth countries also undertook combat operation with No 9 Squadron Royal South African Airforce initially used Mustangs, but found themselves at a major disadvantage against the MiG-15s and so wee re-equipped with F-86F Sabres. Also No 77 Squadron RAAF initially flew Mustangs but were then issued with Meteor Mk7 and 8s which they were not happy with at all. They found themselves totally outclassed by the MiG-15s and were used exclusively for ground attack. The RAF and other Commonwealth countries provide various transport aircraft, mainly Dakotas and these operated together with the Sunderlands out of Iwakuni. Finally there were two Light Observation Flights operating Auster AOP6s, supplemented by a small number of American built L-19s

The Korean war showed the UK that it was no longer at the cutting edge of Jet aircraft design and led to the acquisition of a large number of Canadair manufactured Sabres that were issued mainly to units in Germany as a stop gap until the Hunter finally gave the RAF a modern swept wing fighter, the Supermarine Swift not being the platform it was hoped it would be.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby Tempest414 » 02 Apr 2019, 10:48

I think with the talk of the RAF operating in the Middle East without AEW/C&C it should be pointed out that the RAAF's E-7's have been operating in the the Middle East since 2014 and routinely carry out 13 hour missions with one carrying out a 17 hour mission

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 02 Apr 2019, 22:56

The issue is that the RAF operated in the Middle East without being able to really contribute Sentries to the Coalitions AWACS capability, but it has contributed greatly to its other ISTAR needs.


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