UK Defence Forum

I wouldn't get too bothered by Marshall's withdrawal. The folks that did the original conversion work in Australia were just the local depot level repair people at an existing Boeing depot. Admittedly, they were doing exclusively military depot level repair, but they had not seen a 737 prior, and they were not conversion specialists like Marshall. They were just the on base depot repair facility at Boeing Australia, RAAF Amberley (previously a RAAF unit and hanger privatised in the 90s). It is a conversion kit, after all. Not supposed to be a bespoke mod.

Jensy wrote: or else didn't feel capable of delivering the project on time and budget. Boeing singing their praises in the press release makes me think it might be the later.

The last time I can remember a withdrawal like that happened was when PA Consulting quit the role as the 'system of systems' integrator and PM for FRES
- we know what happened in the end
- and so does the MoD/ DE&S as they are back to the Prime Contractor model

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/we ... 96.article

The UK’s Marshall Aerospace and Defence Group has confirmed that it withdrew from a project to convert five Boeing 737NGs into E-7A Wedgetail surveillance platforms for the Royal Air Force (RAF) due to commercial considerations.

The UK Ministry of Defence in March 2019 signed a £1.5 billion ($1.8 billion) contract with Boeing to replace the RAF’s 707-based E-3D Sentry fleet with five Wedgetail AEW1s. Deliveries are scheduled to occur between 2023 and 2026, with the programme’s first two airframes being refurbished second-hand examples sourced from the commercial sector.

Cue STS cost overruns & schedule slippage.

SW1 wrote:The UK’s Marshall Aerospace and Defence Group has confirmed that it withdrew from a project

Last year Marshalls mentioned it intended it was going to move elsewhere and sell its land at Cambridge for Housing. Have not heard anything since about that move but it may have something to do with the cancellation.

bobp wrote:

SW1 wrote:The UK’s Marshall Aerospace and Defence Group has confirmed that it withdrew from a project

Last year Marshalls mentioned it intended it was going to move elsewhere and sell its land at Cambridge for Housing. Have not heard anything since about that move but it may have something to do with the cancellation.

Anything’s possible, however there is only really 2 companies in the UK that have recent knowledge completing these type of civil to special mission a/c conversions that being Raytheon UK and Marshall’s.

They know what it takes and importantly know the pitfalls, Marshall’s underbid Raytheon to get a recent one and got burned slightly as it unfolded, I suspect they weren’t prepared to take the risk again and stuck to there guns on what they thought the bid should be.

SW1 wrote:I suspect they weren’t prepared to take the risk again and stuck to there guns on what they thought the bid should be.

Yes in hindsight I agree, they did originally accept the job, but then realised they would lose out financially, and pulled out.

bobp wrote:Last year Marshalls mentioned it intended it was going to move elsewhere and sell its land at Cambridge for Housing. Have not heard anything since about that move but it may have something to do with the cancellation.

Living (relatively) locally this is a topic that's regularly in the local press. I don't think any move is imminent because 2030 has been reported as a likely completion date, and maybe with the move going to one of Cranfield, Duxford or Wyton (an RAF base a few miles NE of Huntingdon). For a few more details (but a year old now) see:

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/c ... e-16274161

There was a lot of local speculation that Mildenhall would be a better option once the USAF leave but that's already been put back a couple of years to (IIRC) 2025. Certainly the plans seem to be advancing for the US tanker fleet to move to Germany but whether the US might keep some of the other small units there still seems to be an open question.

Right now Mildenhall (along with neighbouring Lakenheath) seems as active as ever - the past few evenings in particular seem to have had one of the occasional campaigns of night flying exercises with Mildenhall Ospreys and KC135 tankers regularly overhead, along with very frequent F15 flights out of Lakenheath. Some quite loud jet noise after dark on occasion as well that didn't sound like F15 or KC135 - conceivably a visiting B1 or something else, though the F15's do make a whole range of noises depending on whether they're eg fully loaded and taking off with afterburners or simply returning from training sorties, though even the return flights can be loud if they have to slow up and fly at high AoA. The budget the USAF have for training seems bottomless. Sorry, wandered seriously OT there.

RAF To Receive First E-7 'Wedgetail' In 2023

The Royal Air Force is expected to receive its first E-7 Airborne Early Warning and Control aircraft in 2023.

Responding to a written parliamentary question on Monday, Minister for Defence Procurement Jeremy Quin said the fifth and final E-7 is set to arrive in 2026.

The RAF previously said the aircraft, known as the 'Wedgetail', was expected to begin service in the early 2020s.

Read More: https://www.forces.net/news/raf-receive ... etail-2023

I originally place this on the Australian defence site bt considered it went into the capabilities of the Wedgetail it might be also included here with the mention of capability in electronic warfare
https://venturaapdr.partica.online/apdr ... capability

UK selects ELIX-IR threat warning system for E-7 Wedgetail aircraft

Boeing has selected Leonardo and Thales to deliver a UK sovereign Defensive Aids System (DAS) for the UK’s new fleet of five 737-based Boeing E-7 Wedgetail Airborne Early Warning aircraft.

Read More: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-sele ... -aircraft/

While also on the Australia thread interesting in there new defence review there to begin replacement of wedgetail from about 2028

https://www.defence.gov.au/StrategicUpd ... et_Air.pdf

Why so soon?

Well it could take a while. The project is planned to run into the 2040s, so who knows how long it will take to get around to actually replacing existing airframes. It could be a long period of "studies" and prototyping before anything gets too serious. They may develop the radar first, for example. It's early days to be freaking out.

I agree no need to get freaked out. There is a lot of life left in the E-7 and an ongoing upgrade path as well. I would say the latter half of the 2040s may see something taking shape but any replacement for the E-7 is going to be a next generation platform probably aimed a providing a leap in capability rather than an evolutionary one.

Other documents have discussed adding UAVs with distributed sensors to their AWACs fleet, an "E7B"with new/modernized radar could also fall under that line item, or they may be planning to take a look at whatever systems USAF finally coughs up to replace E-3&8.

Also:

Air Force’s Boeing E-7A Wedgetail Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) capability is also under scrutiny, with up to $21.1 billion of funding for a replacement to begin in 2029 but, as AVM Roberts noted, the program is not linked to the recapitalisation of the USAF E-3 Sentry AWACS fleet at this time.

“The ADF will begin to explore options to replace Wedgetail as early as 2029, through risk-reduction and capability assurance studies. Due to the criticality of the capability, these studies will focus on the future airborne command and control needs of the ADF,” AVM Roberts explained.

“There is no official link with the US E-3 recapitalisation program at this time. The RAAF will seek alignment with close allies such as the United States but is open to all technology solutions.”

Interesting interview. Raises more questions about many programs, but clear they are serious -- especially about UAV teams.
https://www.australiandefence.com.au/ne ... nvestments

A rumour, ISDR speculation or attempt to re-negotiate a non-competed contract? Who knows...

When Raytheon and Marshall’s both pulled out over unrealistic costs leaving a newbie who’s not done these type of programs this was in trouble, especially after Marshall’s had already prepared the hanger for the conversion before bailing.

Add in covids decimation of the uk aerospace industry and questions will be asked about buying US aircraft.

Costs have risen from £1.5bn to £2.1bn in 6 months as well....this might just be a shot across Boeing's bows.
Ultimately if you cannot control costs to that extent as a supplier you're in trouble in any business. Given the short timelines to delivery its near impossible for the MoD to have managed to add extra works that required that increase without also jeopardising the ISD, which doesn't appear to be the case.

Another story from the Times, as seen recently with other stories not entirely to be trusted. Is this another of those "according to defence sources" articles. Does sound like the program is in serious trouble after Marshalls pulled out due to costs.

If you take a step back your proposing developing a brand new future air system of systems and your wanting saab and Sweden involved to help develop it and put up money to cover costs but don’t want them involved in what could arguable be a central part of it and go with Boeing to have commonality with Australia who are now talking replacement.

Just rumour, but I could see them doing it.

Stuff like that isn't "sexy" like "they might cut the carriers/tanks/marines" so they can easily feel they can do it without the public caring.

SW1 wrote:questions will be asked about buying US aircraft.

Or, as the airframes will be available en-mass, pushing the cost down, perhaps the quantities will be just staggered. 3 being a like for like replacement, for starters.

SW1 wrote:commonality with Australia who are now talking replacement.

Well, yeah, I saw them mentioning 2030 (!)

ArmChairCivvy wrote:

SW1 wrote:questions will be asked about buying US aircraft.

Or, as the airframes will be available en-mass, pushing the cost down, perhaps the quantities will be just staggered. 3 being a like for like replacement, for starters.

SW1 wrote:commonality with Australia who are now talking replacement.

Well, yeah, I saw them mentioning 2030 (!)

The way things are in aviation at present you could probably have any airframe you like for next to nothing!

But politics is politics and the question will be asked you can bet your life with Airbus, Rolls Royce and bombardier laying of thousands across the U.K. regardless of anything else it will be why are you buying a US aircraft with US engines!

Could in theory also be Saab’s price for signing up to tempest! Many things to consider.