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Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SW1
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 27 Oct 2018, 08:51

There currently building to around a 7 typhoon to 2 f35 fastjet fleet so that would give you on historic numbers around 16 f35 and 50 typhoon available out of that 50 typhoon would be required to support the 3 national qra taskings. As ever it will be pilot and engineer numbers that dictate these things more than purely a/c numbers but your probably looking at maximum effort of something approaching what the harrier and tornado forces sent to operation telic around 15 and 35 a/c.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 27 Oct 2018, 11:30

What worries me is the Tranche 2 and 3 Typhoons, will they actually be brought up to a common standard or will we have a fleet of full spec airframes within a larger fleet of part spec ones, with the former being the ones deployed when needed and the latter held back for training and QRA. I have a strong feeling the Tranche 1 Typhoons will be living on borrowed time and it will be interesting to see if these are on the sacrificial altar in the MDP to free up funding.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Gabriele » 27 Oct 2018, 13:36

I just can't see how the two Tranche 1 squadrons can live on to 2030 to wait for Tempest IF F-35 purchases are not curtailed. Re-equipping the two Tranche 1 squadrons with F-35 would seem to be the most logical thing, if not literally the only chance to do anything. Where is the manpower going to come from, otherwise, for what would be a net growth in the number of fast jet squadrons? Don't think there are many specialists sitting on their arses right now, so how is it supposed to work...?

I so do not like the wording on the F-35 in that Jane's article, though. That distinction of "shore-based" smells like a corpse left in the open for a week in August.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 27 Oct 2018, 14:35

The MoD has stated that which variant is purchased after the current 48 planned is not certain so we could see the A or even C variants. Cost is going to be a major driver once sufficient B variants are in service for one carrier.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Gabriele » 27 Oct 2018, 14:45

once sufficient B


The key word that i think is about to be shamelessly binned with the RAF jumping up on the A train and dumping the whole thing in the shit.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 27 Oct 2018, 18:20

There isnt 2 tranche 1 typhoon sqns there being used throughout the fleet. The Utility in maintaining a large fleet and its ability to sustain a deployment as was seen with the tornado gr force is precisely why they have chosen to build typhoon up and maintain that strength 7 sqns.

LJ

I suspect the typhoon force will continue to be in a state of flux for a number of years as a/c are continually updated with new enhancements. Provided they get as many as possible to a common software standard things should be fine. Should the likes of Spain Finland and Germany order more typhoon it maybe a gd time to add a few extra to the UKs total to replace the earlier models.

You raise a gd point thought it is arguably preferable to ensure most of your high tech kit is podded so that it can be added or removed from a/c to allow upgrade such as we have seen with the targeting and recon pods. Potiential future ew pods or the like could also follow suit same with weapons. One of the benefits of not placing signature. Ontrol so high up your list of priorities in a fighter. If you go further in any future design and separate the flight critical software from the mission systems software you move the game on even further with upgrade potiential.

I actual favour the 1800l fuel over conformals they allow arguably greater flexibility across the whole fleet while mitigating to an extent the need to carry storm shadow on the plumbed wing stations. Also once you clear a tank of that size options to use its profile as a basis for podded systems opens up. The other area is the asea radar if the Germans continue to drag heals on this project then we should push for a uk radar to get it onto the raf aircraft by the mid 2020s.

It would be nice to see a move to JSM in both the naval and air domaines as a possible storm shadow replacement especially if were able to fit uk penetrating warhead options on it.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 27 Oct 2018, 18:35

SW1 wrote: typhoon force will continue to be in a state of flux for a number of years as a/c are continually updated with new enhancements. Provided they get as many as possible to a common software standard things should be fine. Should the likes of [Spain Finland and] Germany order more typhoon it maybe a gd time to add a few extra to the UKs total to replace the earlier models.


Yep, that's right.

Spain; no. Finland; v unlikely. However, with the German order a Tr4 is likely to emerge, and that could be interesting.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby serge750 » 27 Oct 2018, 19:23

I would of thought if the Tempest goes into production it would be a very slow build rate compared to the typhoon since the Uk maybe the only customer but hopefully not !! or lots of used tiffies up for sale....

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby cky7 » 27 Oct 2018, 21:03

Anyone see the Franco/German FCAS models on XAV’s videos on euronaval? There was both a manned and UCAS in the display. UCAS appeared to be the same one we saw in dassault animated vids for the Anglo/french FCAS but the manned fighter looked good I thought. Carrier capable and highly stealthy along with teaming/family of systems were all mentioned along with assault as design leads. Obviously especially at this early stage looks mean very little but their concept had tempest beaten absolutely hands down in that dept. Looked like a cross. Eteeen the Northrop 6th gen fighter concept and some of france’s earlier grand duc designs to me. If the old looks right, flies right adage holds they will be the ones outside the US with a decent 6th gen fighter down the road not us....

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 27 Oct 2018, 21:35

The ucas on display is essentially the Dassault nEUROn. As for the manned Franco/German element there’s already arguments over workshare and leadership.

“Gens” are marketing terms. Sensors, airframe, weapons, data sharing, communications will represent the system that replaces current a/c.

You are of course assuming the mock-up presented at team tempest launch is what there using, a number of configurations have been wind tunnel tested. Define what you want the system to do the shape, size and performance will flow from that.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby RetroSicotte » 27 Oct 2018, 22:14

Tempest as "shown" has been explicitly stated to not be related to the Tempest concepts in the slightest a few times by BAE, I believe. It's been oft said it won't look anything like it. It's mostly only as it is because its stemmed from the Replica program's format thats already in the open. So might as well use it.

France and Germany have a massive hurdle above them to even match the F-22 or F-35, let alone F/A-XX or Tempest. Remember that neither France or Germany haven't even done anything similar to what the US/UK are doing with F-35. Making it look and "fly" stealthily is (as is often stated by the USAF) "the least impressive or complicated thing about it" and absolutely the simplest side of what makes the new generations different.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SKB » 28 Oct 2018, 01:16

For the millionth time... Tempest isn't a plane. It's a future technologies team, called "Team Tempest". The plane is just a representational model and is almost certainly a reuse of the old BAE Replica model. There is no future plane called "Tempest".

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 28 Oct 2018, 02:25

SKB wrote:For the millionth time... Tempest isn't a plane. It's a future technologies team, called "Team Tempest". The plane is just a representational model and is almost certainly a reuse of the old BAE Replica model. There is no future plane called "Tempest".


Not only that but Replica was for evaluating production techniques and their impact on RCS. Not design. They (re)used a simplified design from the Bae/McD JSF entry to build the model because it was to hand.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby jonas » 28 Oct 2018, 16:29

SW1 wrote:The ucas on display is essentially the Dassault nEUROn. As for the manned Franco/German element there’s already arguments over workshare and leadership.

“Gens” are marketing terms. Sensors, airframe, weapons, data sharing, communications will represent the system that replaces current a/c.

You are of course assuming the mock-up presented at team tempest launch is what there using, a number of configurations have been wind tunnel tested. Define what you want the system to do the shape, size and performance will flow from that.


More on the cracks that are appearing on the Franco/German project

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... alflow+DFN

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Frenchie » 28 Oct 2018, 17:45

If the Franco-German project is not successful we will be under American domination, the monopoly is not good for business, if our American friends are the only ones to manufacture combat aircraft and drones, they will set the price.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 28 Oct 2018, 18:12

Frenchie wrote:If the Franco-German project is not successful we will be under American domination, the monopoly is not good for business, if our American friends are the only ones to manufacture combat aircraft and drones, they will set the price.


Yep part of the reason f35 was conceived and marketed the way it was the last manned fighter aircraft the Americans wanted sole control of the western fighter market.

The Uk France Germany could of built a more than capable a/c, German heal dragging and unwillingness to fund any defence spending coupled with France wanting complete control of everything and everyone to pay them money for the privilege of them developing it means that it’s unlike to see the light of day. It remains of huge regret and dismay that rafale and eurofighter were not one and the same. History seems to be repeating itself

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 28 Oct 2018, 18:20

SW1 wrote:German heal dragging and unwillingness to fund any defence spending coupled with France wanting complete control of everything


In this context the German veto to the merger of their aero-defence assets with BAE becomes interesting
- unlike the French, they do not want to control everything, but they do want a veto on everything. Nicht gut!

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby inch » 28 Oct 2018, 20:11

Agreed it is this reason I truly hope the UK does not get involved with a French /German project ,there is other possibilities out there I'm sure and we should actively persue them and not try to get sucked in all for the appearance of staying close to Europe after brexit for the optics ,as Ive said just my 2 penny's worth

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 28 Oct 2018, 20:26

FCAS is basically a combination of French know how and German money, and as we all know he who controls the money wants to be in control. France needs to work with the UK more closely and have Germany as a second tier partner. But they also need to change their Governments attitude on other matters regarding the UK for this to happen as at present it is going to be very hard for the UK to truly partner up with France. In the mean time I can see BAe getting into bed with the US to produce a UCAV far sooner than a manned platform, one that will compliment the F-35 and steal the march on the manned/unmanned FCAS.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Jensy » 31 Oct 2018, 18:56

Well this probably reduces the likelihood of Turkish involvement in project Tempest, or at very least the powerplant:

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2018/10/31/general-electric-beats-rolls-royce-to-power-turkeys-indigenous-fighter-jet/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=Socialflow+DFN&utm_source=twitter.com

Earlier this year, Turkey and Rolls-Royce came close to a strategic cooperation deal for the development and co-production of an engine for the TF-X. The British company and the Turkish government signed a letter of intent to finalize negotiations on the engine program by July 31, but the plan did not come to fruition.


Can't say I'm particularly distressed that we're not sharing advanced military technology with an increasingly rogue state, however it does limit potential partner nations for project Tempest moving forward.

Wonder what led to this break, or if GE made them an offer they couldn't refuse (seeing as most of their current fleet is dependent on them)?

I note that BAE remains involved in the airframe design.

Jensy

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 31 Oct 2018, 19:21

Jensy wrote:does limit potential partner nations for project Tempest moving forward.

Wonder what led to this break


Greece can buy Russian AS missiles, no problem. But the overall behaviour of Turkey has been bad indeed. Cozy up to Putin all you want, but don't pretend to be a NATO member at the same time.
" the likelihood that Turkey may have to go to the IMF for the size of bail-out it needs. The government rules this out as an unacceptable surrender of sovereignty.

“I have no need of the IMF,” Finance Minister Berat Albayrak told Reuters on Sunday. The minister is Erdogan’s son-in-law. "
- well, Washington made sure there is nothing left for Turkey, with the mega-deal IMF did with Argentina (asking for nothing in return; v characteristic behaviour on IMF's part - no?)

The problem is Turkey is a big and vibrant nation (under the hood) and as their president has painted himself into a corner with his nationalistic jingoism, the votes will not go to his party (AKP, which has no say anyway) but to the ultra-nationalists.
- and that will take a long time, then to back out from the blind alley that such a tendency will take the country towards

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Jake1992 » 31 Oct 2018, 19:45

Jensy wrote:Well this probably reduces the likelihood of Turkish involvement in project Tempest, or at very least the powerplant:

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2018/10/31/general-electric-beats-rolls-royce-to-power-turkeys-indigenous-fighter-jet/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=Socialflow+DFN&utm_source=twitter.com

Earlier this year, Turkey and Rolls-Royce came close to a strategic cooperation deal for the development and co-production of an engine for the TF-X. The British company and the Turkish government signed a letter of intent to finalize negotiations on the engine program by July 31, but the plan did not come to fruition.


Can't say I'm particularly distressed that we're not sharing advanced military technology with an increasingly rogue state, however it does limit potential partner nations for project Tempest moving forward.

Wonder what led to this break, or if GE made them an offer they couldn't refuse (seeing as most of their current fleet is dependent on them)?

I note that BAE remains involved in the airframe design.

Jensy


To me this is a good thing Turkey is one of those nations that would be too big of a risk to partner with in something so sensitive.

I'd been looking at Sweden and Italy as main partners.
I would say Japan but as others have said they are pretty much just an extension of the US arms industry and my fear would be that sensative details and technology would be leaked to the US yes a friendly ally but still should not get info and tech they didn't pay for it put in to for free.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 31 Oct 2018, 22:19

Whilst I agree, the size of the programme will be too small with just Sweden and Italy on board. The requirements form these countries plus the UK could be as few as 200 or even less. This would mean the cost would still be too high and probably unaffordable if funded by the defence budgets of these three countries. Any future programme is going to be a numbers game with production totals needing to be more akin to Typhoon or Tornado to make it viable, we therefore need more partners with firm requirements. On the plus side the fact the Franco/German FCAS has to be carrier capable will make that programme even more expensive, so any UK led future manned (or unmanned) platform may appeal to more countries as long as its price is competitive to the next generation of US platforms.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby dmereifield » 01 Nov 2018, 05:50

Lord Jim wrote:Whilst I agree, the size of the programme will be too small with just Sweden and Italy on board. The requirements form these countries plus the UK could be as few as 200 or even less. This would mean the cost would still be too high and probably unaffordable if funded by the defence budgets of these three countries. Any future programme is going to be a numbers game with production totals needing to be more akin to Typhoon or Tornado to make it viable, we therefore need more partners with firm requirements. On the plus side the fact the Franco/German FCAS has to be carrier capable will make that programme even more expensive, so any UK led future manned (or unmanned) platform may appeal to more countries as long as its price is competitive to the next generation of US platforms.


If that is the case, why is the Rafale cheaper than the Typhoon?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 01 Nov 2018, 05:55

dmereifield wrote:If that is the case, why is the Rafale cheaper than the Typhoon?


And spraying petrol onto the fire already raging :) : why is there a planned and funded upgrade prgrm to F4 when our Tiffies (plans we have, yes) are taking forever e.g. with the AESA? And if there will be (for a decade?) only enough F-35s for the carriers, then conformal tanks will also need to be added
- perhaps for something we will get to ride, for once, on Luftwaffe's wing?


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