UK Defence Forum

SW1 wrote:Cheap and expendable is what it’s all about

That's exactly what it needs to be. The whole of NATO will benefit having some aircraft it can afford to loose, that will be the best thing drones do for us.

with NATO's commitment to having 30 squadron ready at anytime it would be a big step to have another 30 squadrons of something like this able to carry 4 or so hellfire or Brimstone or even LMM able to carry out armed re-con

Tempest414 wrote: would be a big step to have another 30 squadrons of something like this able to carry 4 or so hellfire or Brimstone or even LMM able to carry out armed re-con

Agree; NATO AFs are 'overconcentrated' on interdiction and there are too few assets for CAS to be available where and when needed.
- helicopters were meant to do this, but they have turned out to be too vulnerable and/or expensive

Then its about time the army got into the ground based precision fires game.

Which is what the US Army is putting absolute top priority on.

The British Army is, instead, putting priority on the idea that if you disperse 38 tons wheeled APCs armed like SAXONs in tiny platoon groups, you are going to put the enemy in an existential crisis...

FCAS Update from RAeS.

Doesn't seem all is happy in FCAS world...
It's not unexpected as there will be some jockeying for position at the start of a multinational programme, whats important is how long that 'jockeying' goes on for and the compromises reached. Can't blame the Spanish to be honest, but's its obviously narked Airbus somewhat...







Sounds like the approach that the Japanese used with X2

Another FCAS development - Looks like Germany has themselves a Replica..non-flying, used for development. Been around for 10 years apparently.

Has India joined the Tempest project and Iv missed it ? I ask because Iv been looking on YouTube at tempest and keep coming across videos titled UK India jointly develop 6th gen tempest.

No. Thats just Indians trying to generate Youtube clickbait cash.

SKB wrote:No. Thats just Indians trying to generate Youtube clickbait cash.

Thank god, personally I wouldn’t want India involved considering their connection to Russian arms industry.

Considering their connection to Russians? Not their industry track record ?

Considering both reasons

Meriv9 wrote:Considering their connection to Russians? Not their industry track record ?

They are very much how turkey is becoming, happy to buy off both sides and share with both sides. Now most here are not happy with turkey doing this and are very weary of western tech being shared with Russia so why shouldn’t the same apply to India.

The answer to that is so far off topic it should be on a different forum.

Jake1992 wrote:

Meriv9 wrote:Considering their connection to Russians? Not their industry track record ?

They are very much how turkey is becoming, happy to buy off both sides and share with both sides. Now most here are not happy with turkey doing this and are very weary of western tech being shared with Russia so why shouldn’t the same apply to India.

One could argue India and Turkey on the same path, just headed in different directions.

Not that's it's the best barometer of risk (see Iraq and Iran), but when the Americans get wary of exporting military tech to a foreign power (like Turkey) it's usually a good time to stop too.

Likewise, when a nation like India is moving in a Western direction the Yanks tend to reward such movement by selling them top notch gear. No one wants to be the last one to jump on the bandwagon.

The talent is identifying whether a nation's shift, towards or against the West, is going to be a blip or a longer term situation. The shelf life of Erdoğan's Turkey is anyone's guess at the moment.

With Tempest, India could well become a customer and possibly a partner one day. Bringing them in at this early stage, when major choices are still 10+ years away from being made, is likely to be a disaster.

Beyond the EU, I'd be looking at Japan, S.Korea and perhaps Brazil if their economy recovers quickly. All three countries have something valuable to contribute.

Jensy

But there isnt going to be a new plane called "Tempest". Its just a name for a new technologies partnership called "Team Tempest".

SKB wrote:But there isnt going to be a new plane called "Tempest". Its just a name for a new technologies partnership called "Team Tempest".

Indeed. Almost a platform of platforms, to re-quote the F-35 brochure...

Jensy wrote: Indeed. Almost a platform of platforms

which also involves developing an integration standard, PYRAMID,for tying in mission systems... so the same platforms can be put together to be not only one, on the higher level (i.e. the plane) but several different 'incarnations'
- a rationale for how the Swedes could join the prgrm while also committing to their 'own' nxt-gen plane
- indeed, you cannot join the prgrm w/o signing up to PYRAMID

Just one in the long line of feasibility studies and concept work already conducted, for example under research and development programs such as FOAS (Future Offensive Air System; became - and ate up the budget line as down payment to join the partnership - F-35 as its 'incarnation') and FCAS, which became FCAS-TI (when industry signed up to the planned investment levels)...AKA Team Tempest!

SKB wrote:But there isnt going to be a new plane called "Tempest". Its just a name for a new technologies partnership called "Team Tempest".

Yeah but there's history of program names becoming weapon names e.g. Ajax, Spear.

Tempest II...

Lightning II had a leg in "both camps" to stand on (leaving it at Partner Level 1)

Jensy wrote:

Jake1992 wrote:

Meriv9 wrote:Considering their connection to Russians? Not their industry track record ?

They are very much how turkey is becoming, happy to buy off both sides and share with both sides. Now most here are not happy with turkey doing this and are very weary of western tech being shared with Russia so why shouldn’t the same apply to India.

One could argue India and Turkey on the same path, just headed in different directions.

Not that's it's the best barometer of risk (see Iraq and Iran), but when the Americans get wary of exporting military tech to a foreign power (like Turkey) it's usually a good time to stop too.

Likewise, when a nation like India is moving in a Western direction the Yanks tend to reward such movement by selling them top notch gear. No one wants to be the last one to jump on the bandwagon.

The talent is identifying whether a nation's shift, towards or against the West, is going to be a blip or a longer term situation. The shelf life of Erdoğan's Turkey is anyone's guess at the moment.

With Tempest, India could well become a customer and possibly a partner one day. Bringing them in at this early stage, when major choices are still 10+ years away from being made, is likely to be a disaster.

Beyond the EU, I'd be looking at Japan, S.Korea and perhaps Brazil if their economy recovers quickly. All three countries have something valuable to contribute.

Jensy

A view from india,
first of all india doesnt steal tech,because if we were doing would not be struggling with homegrown products...secondly india is moving away from both western & russian weapons as ,it cost hell lot to us,india runs in negative trade deficit & oil import & weapon import are two big reason.
India is developing its own 5th gen aircraft ,so there is little window if india would join the program,yes it may get into partnership of some tech,like engines or new radars,apart from that india is not really interested in joining any program right now,may be later things may change

Apology for invading your forum

RSETH020 wrote: A view from india,
first of all india doesnt steal tech,because if we were doing would not be struggling with homegrown products...secondly india is moving away from both western & russian weapons as ,it cost hell lot to us,india runs in negative trade deficit & oil import & weapon import are two big reason.
India is developing its own 5th gen aircraft ,so there is little window if india would join the program,yes it may get into partnership of some tech,like engines or new radars,apart from that india is not really interested in joining any program right now,may be later things may change

Apology for invading your forum

No need to apologise! It's amazing to get an Indian perspective.

Personally I have no fear of India 'stealing' anything. Seeing the close relationship between Israel and India over defence technology, I just wish Britain had been sharp enough to get a slice of the action with missile systems and radar development.

My concern about India joining at too early a stage is the indecisiveness that the MoD in New Delhi has shown over various medium fighter programmes for several decades now. Added to this, the 'Made in India' policy limits some of the flexibility needed in a multinational programme such as this.

On the other hand I see a rising democracy with a strong connection to Britain that has untold riches in terms of IT infrastructure and programing skill. With software now being as vital to a combat aircraft development as airframe fabrication, there is a lot that India could contribute further down the line. This could in turn be better than an all Indian 5G fighter as the country will skip several generations in one go in terms of combat capability and technology.

Interview with Team Tempest Programme Director

https://www.wearefinn.com/topics/posts/ ... e-year-on/

Jensy wrote:

RSETH020 wrote: A view from india,
first of all india doesnt steal tech,because if we were doing would not be struggling with homegrown products...secondly india is moving away from both western & russian weapons as ,it cost hell lot to us,india runs in negative trade deficit & oil import & weapon import are two big reason.
India is developing its own 5th gen aircraft ,so there is little window if india would join the program,yes it may get into partnership of some tech,like engines or new radars,apart from that india is not really interested in joining any program right now,may be later things may change

Apology for invading your forum

No need to apologise! It's amazing to get an Indian perspective.

Personally I have no fear of India 'stealing' anything. Seeing the close relationship between Israel and India over defence technology, I just wish Britain had been sharp enough to get a slice of the action with missile systems and radar development.

My concern about India joining at too early a stage is the indecisiveness that the MoD in New Delhi has shown over various medium fighter programmes for several decades now. Added to this, the 'Made in India' policy limits some of the flexibility needed in a multinational programme such as this.

On the other hand I see a rising democracy with a strong connection to Britain that has untold riches in terms of IT infrastructure and programing skill. With software now being as vital to a combat aircraft development as airframe fabrication, there is a lot that India could contribute further down the line. This could in turn be better than an all Indian 5G fighter as the country will skip several generations in one go in terms of combat capability and technology.

Thanks jensy,
Gud to know britian has gud understanding with india.Yes india-israel have done a great job in radar & missile ,hope britian will join few programme with us.
Regarding your concern,about medium fighter jet programme & indecisiveness of delhi,is the game of budget vs number vs availability of jets.
India is looking for a deal similiar of mig21,india got the mig21 manufacture line in 1970s,that made producing copies without much hindrance as parts were made locally, so that kept IAF mission ready & mig21 were cheap,so can be ordred & maintain in huge number

After collapse of Soviet union,russian planes come with lot of issue,so india doesnt want russian jets.The only reason we prefer russian manufacturer is the degree of freedom to change or improve on platform is more as compared to west,eg would be su30mki,after receiving them,india developed many of the tech & was able to integrate them along with israeli tech compared that to ins jalshawa an amphibous ship on lease from US,where india has to ask for permission before deployment & cannot integrte its tech.
US is trying to sell latestF18,which many believe is like old wine in new bottle & given 5G planes era at dawn ordering F18 wouldnt make sense as we will be running 4.5gen till 2040 .F35 is way to expensive to order & maintain so that is also a no.
Hence we were left with french rafale only,as they were in budget,can be used by navy in future ,france agreed to transfer manufacturing line at that time but later due to hiccups everyone has come to conclusion that going with homegrown fighter is the best idea.tech is expensive & no one will give manufacturing without string attached.

With LCA program we have made many tech and are short by only few critical tech
Indian Components on lca:
-Airframe and composites(metallurgy)
-Landing gear & hook
-Electronic warfare suite
-Displays & Flight control system (Fly by wire system)
-crash resistant self sealing fuel tanks & valves, wires and plumbing.

Joint development or custom imported components:
-Radar :custom Radar for LCA as per Indian requirements, joint development with Elta .An indian made radar UTTAM AESA is under testing.
-Targeting pods- DRDO made LDP is under testing
-LRUs : These are the brains of the aircraft and are quasi Indian. They use imported silicon Chips (we dont have semicondur capability). However the actual circuit board, system design, standards for interface and the software are 100% Indian.
-Missiles: Some are licence produced and others are fully Indian. Its a mix.

Fully imported:
-Radar covering cone i.e the front cone section of the aircraft which is a quartz based structure imported from UK. -no need to make homegrown product
-Engine from USA - multiple attempts to revive the project has failed but still trying
-Ejection seats UK - no need to make homegrown product
-silicon semiconductor ICs - we dont have chip fab capability,although universities in india have started work on chips,example shakti chip

if u see we are pretty close to make a complete aircraft,we need MMRCA program to fill the falling number of IAF ,not because india has failed to make jet,we need more time to improve the tech.As i have said earlier india is not lookin in joining any program but yes partnership on certain tech will be signed happily

I think india & UK can cooperate on HMS QE design as india defence community feels a catobar of this design will be gud for us + indian nuke reactor for propulsion.HMS QE design is close to what IAC02 program was targetted at.

If you have read this far ,you have alot of patience ,have a nice day cheers