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Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Jensy
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Jensy » 16 Feb 2019, 01:39

Timmymagic wrote:All in all I'd say they were the most likely to join, probably ahead of Sweden even.


Well that bodes well if Francis Tusa has this correct:



There's also a slide doing the rounds from back in November courtesy of Gareth Jennings:

Image

It would appear the Spanish were wise to this month's ago, yet unaware that the RAF still operate Tornado... :( For now.. *sobs*

Stil, I'd say that potentially having two European partners with the aerospace pedigree of Italy and Sweden is fantastic and rather impressive for a project that seemed to be plucked from thin air by the SoS for Farnborough.

Now they just need to name it 'Vampire', in honour of the last fighter all three countries were operators of (alternatively, 'Venom' as it seems Italy evaluated two for the Aeronautica Militare).


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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby matt00773 » 16 Feb 2019, 07:01

Jensy wrote:There's also a slide doing the rounds from back in November courtesy of Gareth Jennings:
It was nice of them to use an image of BAE Replica as the next gen fighter jet.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 16 Feb 2019, 08:54

matt00773 wrote: image of BAE Replica as the next gen fighter jet.
The other images are also interesting (if it emerges that stealth is not as powerful as it is currently made to be):

Rafale X
- France was promoting RAFALE XL to Belgium as in what they would get as future upgrade path by going with Rafale F4 (When the current upgrading is still into F3R)
- so making it bigger, we will see how this survives the rqrmnts/ design iterations with the Germans

Eurofighter LTE
- well, with Saab joining(?) isn't the new Gripen, now in testing, that sort of design and can feed into the new prgrm
- Swedes have worked wonders before: Draken went through Mach 2 (in an experimental config) with one of the engines that the EE Lightning had two of

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 16 Feb 2019, 09:50

Acc

The manned element from the carrier will be f35b.

It’s not that “stealth” will become less poewerful it’s what will be possible in a supersonic fighter shaped design. You can’t cover the full radar frequency range. There’s a reason a lot of concepts looks like bat wings as the enemy is moving into IR detection and low frequency ranges in radar. Covering all that is extremely expensive and unnecessary for significant portions of what a fast jet needs to do. Stand off weapons and linking to unmanned target gathers operating in high risk areas maybe a safer and cheaper option. So there still lots options to consider.


As for the Italians joining in provided there only looking to make the coffee and provide the food and wine for dinner it will be fine! Don’t however let them design and build anything for the plane it will require constant hand holding at every level!!

Saab would be an excellent addition.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby topman » 16 Feb 2019, 10:31

SW1 wrote:
As for the Italians joining in provided there only looking to make the coffee and provide the food and wine for dinner it will be fine! Don’t however let them design and build anything for the plane it will require constant hand holding at every level!!
.


oh i don't know we could let them bid on designing the chocks, intake blanks etc. I'm sure they could manage that. 8-)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 16 Feb 2019, 10:54

SW1 wrote: Don’t however let them design and build anything for the plane it will require constant hand holding at every level!!

topman wrote:oh i don't know we could let them bid on designing the chocks, intake blanks etc. I'm sure they could manage that. 8-)


Howabout the radar :shock:

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Gabriele » 16 Feb 2019, 13:54

As for the Italians joining in provided there only looking to make the coffee and provide the food and wine for dinner it will be fine! Don’t however let them design and build anything for the plane it will require constant hand holding at every level!!


You are aware that the Typhoon electronics are for the vast majority italian, if not in design and manufacture then in ownership? Even what is made in Edinburgh is LEONARDO owned. IRST, countermeasures including DIRCM, radar, composites are all areas in which Italy does remarkably better than you believe in your outdated vision of the world.

The development of a F-35 DAS-like system is already underway in Italy, which would give the TEMPEST the same kind of 360° IR coverage enjoyed by the F-35, but ITAR free.

Also, Oto Melara is involved in the 25mm gun of the F-35, while the UK has either bought german Mauser or had nothing for decades.

Not to mention that CAMM, Aster and Meteor all use seekers made by MBDA Italia in the Fusaro plant.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Jensy » 16 Feb 2019, 17:14

ArmChairCivvy wrote:with Saab joining(?) isn't the new Gripen, now in testing, that sort of design and can feed into the new prgrm
- Swedes have worked wonders before: Draken went through Mach 2 (in an experimental config) with one of the engines that the EE Lightning had two of

They bring some really unique knowledge on minimising bloat in a project, yet delivering near peer capability.
Image
There was an uninhabited Gripen concept some years back (speculative artwork above), that could be an interesting starting point for this 'Loyal Wingman' concept. This would be especially true:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:if it emerges that stealth is not as powerful as it is currently made to be

Furthermore, there's that initial design work on the 'Sea Gripen' that purportedly took place here, which (speculating wildly) would fit in nicely with the:
Qwerty wrote:Loyal wingman to be carrier capable
https://www.janes.com/article/86417/tem ... er-capable

Gabriele wrote: Typhoon electronics are for the vast majority italian, if not in design and manufacture then in ownership. Even what is made in Edinburgh is LEONARDO owned. [...]
The development of a F-35 DAS-like system is already underway in Italy, which would give the TEMPEST the same kind of 360° IR coverage enjoyed by the F-35, but ITAR free.

Also, Oto Melara is involved in the 25mm gun of the F-35, while the UK has either bought german Mauser or had nothing for decades.

These are areas where I feel Italy would be more valuable and trustworthy as a partner than the non-French parts of FCAS.

With Rafale being a wholly (ish) French product, they are going fight hard to sustain nearly every component specialisation and niche in country. The infighting with German Airbus will be huge. I'd imagine particularly with regards to powerplant and aerostructures.

With the UK and Italy, as said before, they have been part of three different development programmes for the Tornado, Typhoon and Lightning. As Gabriele points out, the industrial links are deep and in place. We know how to play nice. Hopefully (based on £€$'s) the end product will be a world beater.

Just please don't let India join too early, or the whole thing will go to hell...

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 16 Feb 2019, 18:05

Gabriele wrote:
As for the Italians joining in provided there only looking to make the coffee and provide the food and wine for dinner it will be fine! Don’t however let them design and build anything for the plane it will require constant hand holding at every level!!


You are aware that the Typhoon electronics are for the vast majority italian, if not in design and manufacture then in ownership? Even what is made in Edinburgh is LEONARDO owned. IRST, countermeasures including DIRCM, radar, composites are all areas in which Italy does remarkably better than you believe in your outdated vision of the world.

The development of a F-35 DAS-like system is already underway in Italy, which would give the TEMPEST the same kind of 360° IR coverage enjoyed by the F-35, but ITAR free.

Also, Oto Melara is involved in the 25mm gun of the F-35, while the UK has either bought german Mauser or had nothing for decades.

Not to mention that CAMM, Aster and Meteor all use seekers made by MBDA Italia in the Fusaro plant.


Yes gabby I am full aware what the Italian work package on typhoon involves. My comments are based on personal experience of being involved with several aerospace programs both military and civilian with Italian aerospace company’s.

What the headlines or media don’t tell you is when programs are are going badly and the prime effectively takes over the Italian supplier by inserting multiple engineering disciplines on site with said supplier and removal of engineering release and change board approvals as a result of poor quality engineering practices eg hand holding at every level.

Don’t get me wrong it’s a great country with excellent food and beverages and the people are nice too, there just not that good at making aeroplanes in my experience.

A flavour of what I’m talking about https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/blo ... er-to.html

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Jake1992 » 16 Feb 2019, 18:13

For me there’s only 2 other partners I’d like to seen join after Italy and Sweden and they are Japan and Canada.

Canada will all depend on what happens with there currrnt replacement program, if they go with the3rd hand RAAF buy as a stop gap then it could be all go but if they cave and end up in the F35 camp then it’s dead in the water. I’d like to see them join just so we can get a foot hold in the North America market.

With Japan I think they could bring a lot to the project especially in engine development but they’d need to be strict rules and monitoring to prevent them from leaking to the US as they are just and extension of the US arms industry for the most part. Yes the US is s close ally but they shouldn’t get ote for free.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 16 Feb 2019, 18:24

If you were looking for a list of countries who you would want to work width from a purely engineering perspective then Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Belgium, Holland, Canada, Brazil,Austria, Australia, France Switzerland and the US would be who I’d look too.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby cky7 » 16 Feb 2019, 20:40

Along the lines of what’s being discussed above, let’s hope we can all be grown up when sorting production this time. IMO we have to avoid a repeat of the eurofighter ‘build the left wing here and the right there...’ stuff, followed by multiple production lines as it must have really added to costs and driven down efficiency. I’m sure each nation will have areas where they’re particularly strong and surely ways can be found to work things so that everyone gets a decent share but sticks to the role they’re good at. Obviously this is massively simplified but something alongside the lines if Italy does the areas of electronics where they’re particularly capable, Sweden the e/w systems and U.K. engines with rolls Royce....

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby seaspear » 16 Feb 2019, 22:21

Perhaps the funding should follow the route of the F35 with tier partners , this is an aircraft that can be complementary to the F35 and should appeal to those users of such

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby topman » 17 Feb 2019, 07:50

Jensy wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:with Saab joining(?) isn't the new Gripen, now in testing, that sort of design and can feed into the new prgrm
- Swedes have worked wonders before: Draken went through Mach 2 (in an experimental config) with one of the engines that the EE Lightning had two of

They bring some really unique knowledge on minimising bloat in a project, yet delivering near peer capability.
Image
There was an uninhabited Gripen concept some years back (speculative artwork above), that could be an interesting starting point for this 'Loyal Wingman' concept. This would be especially true:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:if it emerges that stealth is not as powerful as it is currently made to be

Furthermore, there's that initial design work on the 'Sea Gripen' that purportedly took place here, which (speculating wildly) would fit in nicely with the:
Qwerty wrote:Loyal wingman to be carrier capable
https://www.janes.com/article/86417/tem ... er-capable

Gabriele wrote: Typhoon electronics are for the vast majority italian, if not in design and manufacture then in ownership. Even what is made in Edinburgh is LEONARDO owned. [...]
The development of a F-35 DAS-like system is already underway in Italy, which would give the TEMPEST the same kind of 360° IR coverage enjoyed by the F-35, but ITAR free.

Also, Oto Melara is involved in the 25mm gun of the F-35, while the UK has either bought german Mauser or had nothing for decades.

These are areas where I feel Italy would be more valuable and trustworthy as a partner than the non-French parts of FCAS.


All I can say is, I wouldn't make such bold statements until you've seen some of the issues first hand.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby topman » 17 Feb 2019, 08:09

Gabriele wrote:
As for the Italians joining in provided there only looking to make the coffee and provide the food and wine for dinner it will be fine! Don’t however let them design and build anything for the plane it will require constant hand holding at every level!!


You are aware that the Typhoon electronics are for the vast majority italian, if not in design and manufacture then in ownership? Even what is made in Edinburgh is LEONARDO owned. IRST, countermeasures including DIRCM, radar, composites are all areas in which Italy does remarkably better than you believe in your outdated vision of the world.

The development of a F-35 DAS-like system is already underway in Italy, which would give the TEMPEST the same kind of 360° IR coverage enjoyed by the F-35, but ITAR free.

Also, Oto Melara is involved in the 25mm gun of the F-35, while the UK has either bought german Mauser or had nothing for decades.

Not to mention that CAMM, Aster and Meteor all use seekers made by MBDA Italia in the Fusaro plant.



I think you've just underlined the point he was trying to make.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Jensy » 17 Feb 2019, 08:44

topman wrote:All I can say is, I wouldn't make such bold statements until you've seen some of the issues first hand.


I genuinely didn't think that wording or statement was particularly bold. Although never on the technical side, I've engaged with Leonardo UK (before the name change) numerous times for media and advocacy purposes. I found their management and sites quite impressive and heard few negative stories from others in the industry or press.

Can you elaborate a little on what sort of issues you fear might arise?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby topman » 17 Feb 2019, 15:41

Jensy wrote:
topman wrote:All I can say is, I wouldn't make such bold statements until you've seen some of the issues first hand.


I genuinely didn't think that wording or statement was particularly bold. Although never on the technical side, I've engaged with Leonardo UK (before the name change) numerous times for media and advocacy purposes. I found their management and sites quite impressive and heard few negative stories from others in the industry or press.

Can you elaborate a little on what sort of issues you fear might arise?

Jensy



My experience tells me their QC leaves a lot to be desired, not all of the time in everything but enough not to be surprised at all when certain issues crop up. Nearly always issues from build, not necessarily design per se.
And trying to get those mistakes rectified isn't always easy either (they aren't on their own in this regard ) sometimes it takes feet held to the fire over it and then lots of huffing and puffing before its sorted.

Of course this isn't all of the time on all their bits of kit and others aren't perfect but it is significantly noticeable.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Jensy » 17 Feb 2019, 16:24

Thanks Topman. Interesting to hear. Perhaps such concerns can be mitigated by a centralised management/oversight team, if indeed Italy signs up?

I note that the M-346 has been well received in Israel, where they have rather understandably high standards even in non-combat aircraft. Hopefully that's something they can replicate.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 17 Feb 2019, 17:08

Fucking stupid to label an entire country as being good or bad at something.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Meriv9 » 17 Feb 2019, 19:44

I just think market speaks for itself, it doesn't mean that the personal experience is wrong, they are probably correct and still Leonardo and other Italian aerospace companies got their market placement exactly for that cons&pros specially considering that at marketing culture we are probably the worst country in the continent (making hard to "maquillage" our capabilities, no preconceived stereotypes like German engineering see Baden-Württemberg frigate or french "human rights defenders" Mali/Libya )

Thus, the results Gabriele listed speak for themselves.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby matt00773 » 17 Feb 2019, 20:48

For what it's worth, I've got no issues with Italy joining the Tempest programme - in fact I would welcome them given their pedigree in tech development. Japan and Sweden would also be fantastic additions.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Meriv9 » 17 Feb 2019, 21:24

We just need at least one more EU member (to get the EU funds), it would be better if it is also used the F-35, so the Benelux and/or the Danish.

The key IMHO is keeping it simple, we have a tech advantage (thanks to the F-35) in respect to the French team, so they have to risk more to get the same result, lets play it safe, go for safe solutions and keep the budget under control, the pressure will be on them (i dont think we will see two 7th generation fighters in Europe).

If we get the Japanese onboard it would be amazing.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 17 Feb 2019, 21:52

Meriv9 wrote:We just need at least one more EU member (to get the EU funds)


I guess you are referring to the rule that bilateral projects do not qualify, and for any count from there upwards only (further) EU members bring the eligibility
- even though it is still all open
- Reuters reported on the "state of play" in November: "Britain’s closest EU allies, led by the Netherlands and the Baltics, are pressing for a deal to allow British industry into lucrative EU military projects and tap into EU funds.

But others, including France and Italy, want non-EU countries’ involvement to be on a highly selective basis."

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby matt00773 » 18 Feb 2019, 06:23

Interesting news on an Italian response to the approach taken by France and Germany on FCAS - "Taking sides: Italian defense industry rep attacks Franco-German fighter deal".

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... hter-deal/

“The fighter deal between Germany and France leaves all others on the margins. And since the only other country with equal industrial capabilities is Italy, the deal is clearly against Italy,” he said.

“Have France and Germany tried to get the Italy involved? It doesn’t look that way,” he added. “Additionally, if two European stakeholders strike deals together, how should the others react? This risks weakening the EU, while giving more justification to those trying to weaken the EU.”

“A jilted partner has the right to look around for other partners, and the U.K. has asked us to join Tempest,” he said.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 18 Feb 2019, 06:56

matt00773 wrote:“Have France and Germany tried to get the Italy involved? It doesn’t look that way,”


Whereas a more token partner (Spain) was OK as the project is no more a 'bilateral' one... and can tap into the 13bn of EDF - that everyone ;) in the EU, Italy included, pays into


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