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Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 08 Nov 2018, 15:44

Germany might be tempted to use the Tempest effort/ join it, to up the game from Tr3+ to Tr4?

"Thus any partners might be involved in some, all or just certain aspects of project."

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby matt00773 » 08 Nov 2018, 16:38

Short article on the future combat aircraft programme listing the technologies being investigated:

https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articl ... the-skies/

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 08 Nov 2018, 17:06

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Germany might be tempted to use the Tempest effort/ join it, to up the game from Tr3+ to Tr4?

"Thus any partners might be involved in some, all or just certain aspects of project."


Possibly. But I suspect they're not really looking much beyond the P1E, AESA and Centurion style upgrades at present for the potential order to replace T1.
As to a 'T4' I can't see them initially going beyond the full UK T3 standard with AESA, B61 integration and conformal tanks. I wouldn't even expect them to develop the EJ-200 further.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 08 Nov 2018, 17:12

Timmymagic wrote: I suspect they're not really looking much beyond the P1E, AESA and Centurion style upgrades at present for the potential order to replace T1.


Agreed, was thinking about the next step.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 08 Nov 2018, 17:23

matt00773 wrote:Short article on the future combat aircraft programme listing the technologies being investigated:

https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articl ... the-skies/


What, no stealth?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 08 Nov 2018, 17:25

matt00773 wrote:Short article on the future combat aircraft programme listing the technologies being investigated:

https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articl ... the-skies/


A lot of coded messages there, like automated weapon release
"Trusted reasoning: Future combat aircraft will require increases in processing power and novel algorithms to enable rapid decision-making against a range of threats."
Ron5 wrote:What, no stealth?

-old hat :D

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby matt00773 » 08 Nov 2018, 17:58

Ron5 wrote:
matt00773 wrote:Short article on the future combat aircraft programme listing the technologies being investigated:

https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articl ... the-skies/


What, no stealth?


Good point, though as this is about developing new technologies I guess stealth is assumed?

Interesting about the adaptable airframe and multi-role configuration.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby matt00773 » 08 Nov 2018, 18:03

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
matt00773 wrote:Short article on the future combat aircraft programme listing the technologies being investigated:

https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articl ... the-skies/


A lot of coded messages there, like automated weapon release
"Trusted reasoning: Future combat aircraft will require increases in processing power and novel algorithms to enable rapid decision-making against a range of threats."
I have to admit the article is disappointing. The site did 3 articles this week with interviews with BAE covering new technologies for land, sea and air and really only scratched the surface using lots of fluff and buzz words.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 08 Nov 2018, 22:34

Cannot really expect much more from a conceptual study.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ares » 13 Nov 2018, 15:45

I want to drop this JNAAM info here since the Tempest would use this missile too.

JNAAM will use Ka-band GaN AESA radar made by Mitsubishi Electric as its seeker.
(胴径が小型化されたシーカにおいても、現有装備品と同等以上のシーカ探知性能を確保するため、GaNモジュール(※4)を適用することにより小型・高出力化を実現する技術を確立する。
http://www.mod.go.jp/j/approach/hyouka/seisaku/results/29/pdf/jizen_03_honbun.pdf)

AAM-4B has Ka-band AESA seeker too but it made of GaAS.
Image

FYI, watch this video from MBDA about the advantage of Ka-band frequency using it for missile seeker.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG2B-Ot9SL4

According to the Japanese MoD, its first launch test will be carried on a U.K. fighter to reduce the development cost. (Meteor構成品を活用するとともに発射試験の母機に英国のMeteor搭載可能機種を使用することで研究経費及び期間の効率化を図る計画としている。)

The prototyping period is from 2018 to 2022 and the trial period is from 2021 to 2023.(事業実施の時期平成30年度から平成34年度まで研究試作を実施し、平成33年度から平成35年度まで試験を実施する予定である。)

Source : http://www.mod.go.jp/j/approach/agenda/ ... iryou2.pdf page.17

Overall, thanks to the high power GaN-based AESA seeker that has very long-range detection capability and very fast throttleable ducted rocket engine, JNAAM can track & kill the low RCS and highly maneuverable targets with the unique air-to-air location prediction guidance system.

Image

If this missile goes well for U.K. and Japan, US may buy it too since they are struggling to develop the successor AAM to ARMRAAM.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 13 Nov 2018, 18:25

Ares wrote:thanks to the high power GaN-based AESA seeker that has very long-range detection capability and very fast throttleable ducted rocket engine, JNAAM can track & kill the low RCS and highly maneuverable targets


As the man says! once in a blue moon the good old USA might want to buy something from us
... even for Brimstone 2 they had to go and do "their thing" when it was there: off the shelf

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Gabriele » 13 Nov 2018, 21:40

US may buy it too since they are struggling to develop the successor AAM to ARMRAAM.


I'm not sure they are struggling. They are saying very little about the ongoing programmes for new AAMs, but the programmes exist and are ongoing.

Anyway, having JNAAM ready soon would obviously be a good thing for chasing after an export chance.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby matt00773 » 16 Nov 2018, 06:36

There's an article on the French/German FCAS project where the French "must have" capabilities are stated as firing nuclear weapons and to conduct carrier operations. There's also a comment about the possibility of on-boarding the Tempest project at a later date. However, if you add into the mix that Dassault will be the lead contractor for the central combat aircraft then I don't think there's much chance of the UK being involved at all. There's certainly no need for UK to have another aircraft carrier capable jet and it seems to me the French just want other people to help pay for their new toys - maybe a criticism of UK as well?

Furthermore, there's a lot stated about FCAS managing swarms of drones - which just seem like someone has been watching too much science fiction. If you're going to have drone's conduct missions, there's no need to have it manged through a single point of failure that itself is part of the mission. Surely the drone itself can be programmed as well as using satellites and other assets that can relay signals?

Anyway it's early days, but it seems that there's quite a gap between the Tempest and FCAS visions.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... plane-bid/

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 16 Nov 2018, 07:23

A good find. It has gone quiet for a while (agreeing the joint requirements was known to be on the go)
- Spain joining is a new development
- also "Airbus and Dassault are the main contractors for the FCAS program. They are slated to receive initial study contracts early next year." these study contracts will need to be based on something (agreed "must have" requirements).

When the French AF Chief was wooing the Belgian parlamentarians (F-35 decision happened well thereafter), he was hinting that the new plane would be "a" Rafale XL
- hence a bigger carrier will be needed. Note the fielding date for the NGF given in the article: 2040
- the said PA NG was covered by Florence Parly on the "Le grand rendez-vous" show by Europe 1/CNews/Les Échos [and] She stressed that the current aircraft carrier, the Charles de Gaulle, is set to remain in service until around 2040 (as planned). [The thanks :thumbup: for picking that one up goes to xav & Co]

Tempest being a technology research project it would seem to align more with the Airbus NGF responsibilities than Dassault's. Then again, the unmanned thread of the whole prgrm is still to take its shape. When the Anglo-French project (that has now become the sole proprietor of its name, again) was still running, Airbus was loudly complaining about being left out, in the cold.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby RetroSicotte » 16 Nov 2018, 08:48

Them saying "Tempest can join later" is basically a low key attempt to belittle and perceptualise the British aerospace industry as a second tier player compared to them, given it would (In such case) just be "hey come here and give us some of your money and we'll let you put a couple of your things into our plane that you can then buy!"

Something to be stringently avoided. The UK is not in the same situation as France and Germany where it is lacking for modern aircraft into the 2040's and onwards, what with F-35. The UK has the time to sit and develop this one. No need to rush into only bolstering Dassault/Airbus.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 16 Nov 2018, 10:41

RetroSicotte wrote: The UK is not in the same situation as France and Germany where it is lacking for modern aircraft into the 2040's and onwards, what with F-35. The UK has the time to sit and develop this one.


Agreed. A rare luxury.

And needed, too. The RAF is in good shape (save for integration prgrms that proceed at a glacial pace; and for the "soon-to-appear" gaping hole in helicopter fleets, as for the mid-weight category).

As the Dreadnoughts are bulldozing through defence budgets, the above gives some respite to use the crumbs falling off the table for
- patching up the AFV fleets
- and keeping up the frigate "workhorse" numbers.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 03 Dec 2018, 10:36

Nicely carrying on from the above (the quote coming in from the carriers & harriers, sorry: CVF & JSF thread):
"
Lord Jim wrote: As for Tempest or Team Tempest, the Idea of this producing sub systems for the Franco/German project is interesting and would spread the financial load across more nations without trampling on too many toes. These could also migrate to the Typhoon and the UK working with Germany to optimise this platform


It should be remembered that it was only Merkel ( in Germany's national interest... code for "sovereign capability"?) and the German Gvmnt's shareholding that stopped the BAE aerospace interests from being merged with those over there
... there is an industrial logic at work here; it can - and will - come out in different manifestations

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 03 Dec 2018, 21:30

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Nicely carrying on from the above (the quote coming in from the carriers & harriers, sorry: CVF & JSF thread):
"
Lord Jim wrote: As for Tempest or Team Tempest, the Idea of this producing sub systems for the Franco/German project is interesting and would spread the financial load across more nations without trampling on too many toes. These could also migrate to the Typhoon and the UK working with Germany to optimise this platform


It should be remembered that it was only Merkel ( in Germany's national interest... code for "sovereign capability"?) and the German Gvmnt's shareholding that stopped the BAE aerospace interests from being merged with those over there
... there is an industrial logic at work here; it can - and will - come out in different manifestations


ACC

A heavy refresh of typhoon sort of gripen E type exercise maybe an option it will greatly depend on what level of signature management is deemed necessary. The current force is pretty set until the mid 2030s so we have some time to consider the options.

As we move into a more contested air environment the fastjets will I think find themselves becoming more detached from the supporting cast than they have been for some time and will need to fend for themselves more, they may be required to operate a swarm of perhaps expendable uav and conduct non traditional fastjet missions.. It may perhaps be worth looking at adding a second crew member back into the cockpit think growlers given the complexity of the likely environment.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby shark bait » 04 Dec 2018, 00:11

SW1 wrote:I think find themselves becoming more detached from the supporting cast


That's highly likely, China and Russia have openly declared that as a method to reduce the effectiveness western air power. The fighter will have to become more self sufficient, and it wouldn't be surprised to see that happen with the help of drones.

I was expecting to see some two seat concepts appearing for the next generation for the same reasons you state, but instead its more likely we will see AI taking the second seat to help control the pilots work load.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 04 Dec 2018, 08:25

SW1 wrote:pretty set until the mid 2030s so we have some time to consider the options

Agreed, we have that rare luxury. Hence the brief for Team Tempest (= not a plane)
SW1 wrote:As we move into a more contested air environment the fastjets [...] may be required to operate a swarm of perhaps expendable uav and conduct non traditional fastjet missions.. It may perhaps be worth looking at adding a second crew member back into the cockpit think growlers given the complexity of the likely environment.

Exactly for the reasons that you state we might see a surprise. Norway did not have the luxury of time (with their F-16s being very old) and they bought more F-35s with early warts and all than we have authorised, us additionally spreading the purchase out in time in order to minimise teething troubles. But the surprise might come out of the Finland fighter competition. If the F-35 support costs won't get firmly grounded, plenty quick, I would expect a mixed SH & Growler fleet to emerge, exactly to provide for those options you mention. The planned life being 20 years further out than the retirement for our current fleet of Tiffies.
shark bait wrote:instead its more likely we will see AI taking the second seat to help control the pilots work load

Agreed. AI flying the plane, while the human (thus assisted also in other tasks) does mission control.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 04 Dec 2018, 10:57

A bit Sci Fi I know but what do people think of VR being used to allow pilots to control full combat Drones in all roles from A2A to A2G as a stepping stone towards AI equipped autonomous platforms.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 04 Dec 2018, 11:11


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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 04 Dec 2018, 11:13

Italy and the Netherlands aren't confirmed...it might just be speculation, but the source was the Spanish MoD. Spain joining the Franco-German project has been nailed on for an age with the Airbus link. I suspect Italy is nailed on for Tempest due to the Typhoon/F--35 mix and Leonardo, plus Italy's reluctance to work with Germany and France again perhaps...

But the Netherlands makes no real sense...

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Jake1992 » 04 Dec 2018, 11:16

Timmymagic wrote:https://twitter.com/TheDEWLine/status/1069705095095435264


If done right tempest could end up being a better set than typhoon was as is was our selfs and Italy have been the driving force in sales and development.

Tempest consisting of the UK, Italy, Sweden, Netherlands and protentaily Japan and even Canada now that sounds pretty good to me.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 04 Dec 2018, 14:51

It does point to "Tempest" possibly not actually delivering a platform but rather a collection of technologies applicable to other platforms. The actual platform will probably be a follow on programme targeting the 2040s to supplement the F-35 or even replace some of the older blocks still in service at that time.


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