Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

[seaspear]

With regards to the French needs upgrading the Ralfale is all that,s needed unless there is a definite program to build carriers for a new design of aircraft , there could exist a need for an aircraft that,s manned low observable has a much larger payload the f35 and longer range an aircraft that may operate as per the "Raven " of the F111 , it could be a two person aircraft directing the drones as well if not launching them in short I would suggest the aircraft do missions the f35 does not to complement the f35 a,b , I have not read any argument that unmanned drones could hold their own against modern fighters equipped with counter drone jamming and better sensors

[abc123]

The future aircraft carrier will move 70,000 tonnes in theory. Anyway France will not buy F-35C.

Then chances are they'll leave fixed wing carrier aircraft behind then. Short of tweaking the Rafale there's not much more they can do. To design a new carrier aircraft from scratch for a run of less than 50 aircraft would be economically unviable.

I agree with you, the future for French Air Force is the evolution of the Rafale so that there is not a lot of technological gap with the F-35, in a few words the Rafale is going succeed to himself.

But, what to do after F3-level?

[Lord Jim]

Imagine two F-35s operating with four stealthy UCAVs The latter can move forward say two to detect opponents both air and ground using passive or active sensors, relay those to he F-35s which then relays targeting data to the remaining UCAVs. If the UCAVs are each carrying four to six Meteors for A2A for example it gives the formation a formidable capability and ideal for Air Defence patrols north of Scotland.

Obviously we are a ways off from this scenario but things are moving quite rapidly. The days of artificially intelligent UCAVs able to dogfight a further out but having mixed formations covers this. Who knows the US might develop an unmanned F-35 at some point in the future just for this scenario.

[shark bait]

I think if we extend that concept, projects like the USAF B-21 look highly relevant.

The UCAV's act as a forward observer sensor network for a larger manned platform that supplies the payload, allowing the manned component to remain at stand off range, and keeping the drones small.

We should resist making these drones huge, and should limit them to just carrying a few defense missiles internally. They should mostly be data hoovers that we can train to dog fight over time, and letting Meteor do the hard work.

[Defiance]

Do we then have a scenario where we have to launch a small fleet of aircraft to respond to a QRA?

[shark bait]

Manned fighters are still going to be around for the next 40 years, so that gives us plenty of time to work out what to do with QRA. Could a single drone manage it?

[Frenchie]

The future aircraft carrier will move 70,000 tonnes in theory. Anyway France will not buy F-35C.

Then chances are they'll leave fixed wing carrier aircraft behind then. Short of tweaking the Rafale there's not much more they can do. To design a new carrier aircraft from scratch for a run of less than 50 aircraft would be economically unviable.

I agree with you, the future for French Air Force is the evolution of the Rafale so that there is not a lot of technological gap with the F-35, in a few words the Rafale is going succeed to himself.

But, what to do after F3-level?

[abc123]

The future aircraft carrier will move 70,000 tonnes in theory. Anyway France will not buy F-35C.

Then chances are they'll leave fixed wing carrier aircraft behind then. Short of tweaking the Rafale there's not much more they can do. To design a new carrier aircraft from scratch for a run of less than 50 aircraft would be economically unviable.

I agree with you, the future for French Air Force is the evolution of the Rafale so that there is not a lot of technological gap with the F-35, in a few words the Rafale is going succeed to himself.

But, what to do after F3-level?

So, you think that there will be no future French-German aircraft, if Germany buys F-35?

[Frenchie]

So, you think that there will be no future French-German aircraft, if Germany buys F-35?

Absolutely, the Germans do not want an aircraft in 2030-2040 but in 2025, so no Franco-German aircraft, on the other hand, we need (France and United Kingdom) to an aircraft in 2040 to replace the Typhoon and the Rafale, more Dassault said that the tests on the Neuron have allowed to store a lot of knowledge to make combat UCAVs that would be controlled by a conventional aircraft, if we already share the FCAS, it would be a good idea to make a 5th or 6th generation aircraft together. This is my simple opinion.

[abc123]

So, you think that there will be no future French-German aircraft, if Germany buys F-35?

Absolutely, the Germans do not want an aircraft in 2030-2040 but in 2025, so no Franco-German aircraft, on the other hand, we need (France and United Kingdom) to an aircraft in 2040 to replace the Typhoon and the Rafale, more Dassault said that the tests on the Neuron have allowed to store a lot of knowledge to make combat UCAVs that would be controlled by a conventional aircraft, if we already share the FCAS, it would be a good idea to make a 5th or 6th generation aircraft together. This is my simple opinion.

IMHO, I don't think that the UK will, after the F-35, ever again develop manned fighter with anybody except with the United States...

[sunstersun]

I'd love to see UK and Japan develop a next generation aircraft.

[Timmymagic]

IMHO, I don't think that the UK will, after the F-35, ever again develop manned fighter with anybody except with the United States...

I definitely can't see us developing anything major with France. You may as well build a project cancelled milestone into the plan at the beginning.

[andrew98]

Then the french partners selling something themselves using all the joint tech.

[Cooper]

I don't see how the UK & France could ever come to a common design agreement on a (manned) Typhoon & Rafale replacement.

The problems of the French wanting an aircraft suitable for both land and carrier based operations will be the same as what caused France to pull out of the Eurofighter project.

Nothing will have changed in that regard (assuming France replaces the CDG of course).

[Timmymagic]

The problems of the French wanting an aircraft suitable for both land and carrier based operations will be the same as what caused France to pull out of the Eurofighter project.

One of the main reasons was the French insistence of using the Snecma M88. The UK and other partners, correctly, objected to an inferior engine choice to the Rolls Royce XG-40 (which became the EJ-200). Cue French bat and ball beginning the journey home...

[Frenchie]

The article is a little old but it seems that BAE is not against a participation in a European aircraft, as far as I understand, but maybe I translate badly, sorry if that's the case.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-airsh ... KKBN19Z142

[Defiance]

If Germany goes ahead with F-35 then personally the French are the wildcard. With F-35 in inventory, the industries/Governments of UK/GER/ITA are more likely to have more closely aligned requirements than the French, so it will be interesting to see how things play out.

Personally i'm pro-Euro fighter program, very much so. The alternative is to become a US SubCon and slowly wither and die due to lack of scraps from the foodtable.

[shark bait]

There has to be another Eurofighter. The F35 has done a very good job of dismantling European industry, that needs resetting.

[Gabriele]

There has to be another Eurofighter. The F35 has done a very good job of dismantling European industry, that needs resetting.

Look at it the other way too, it helps: the F-35 allowed the european industries of three countries to get decades of work with a four billion investment in design. That's what UK, Italy and Netherlands contributed to the F-35's design.

Want more? Fork out the money. It is that simple.

[Frenchie]

From Defense Industry Daily

« Lockheed Martin is confident that the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter will be selected as Germany's Tornado fighter replacement, after Berlin confirmed that the next-generation fighter is the Air Force’s “preferred” choice. Germany is looking to replace its 85 Tornado jets between 2025 and 2030, and requests have been sent for information about the F-35, as well as three other jets: Boeing's F-15 and F/A-18E/F fighters, as well as the Eurofighter consortium’s Typhoon. The F-35 has already been selected by several of Germany’s regional allies, including Norway, the Netherlands, the UK, Italy, Turkey and Denmark, and some have already started to receive deliveries. Belgium is expected to make a decision next year. »

From Jane's 360

« The German Air Force has a shortlist of existing platforms to replace its Panavia Tornados from 2025 to 2030, but the Lockheed Martin [LM] F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is the service’s “preferred choice”, a senior service official said on 8 November.

» Speaking under the Chatham House Rule, the official said that the F-35 already fulfils most of the requirements that the Luftwaffe requires to replace its Tornados in the 2025 to 2030 timeframe, and that it offers a number of other benefits besides.

» “The Tornado replacement needs to be fifth-generation aircraft that can be detected as late as possible, if at all. It must be able to identify targets from a long way off and to target them as soon as possible.

» “The German Ministry of Defence [MoD] is looking at several aircraft today, including the F-35 – it is commercially available already, has been ordered by many nations and is being introduced into service today, and has most of the capabilities required.”

» Germany had previously engaged Airbus Defence and Space (DS) in defining the requirements for a future Tornado replacement under its Future Combat Air System (FCAS) programme. However, the timelines involved of an anticipated retirement of the Tornado in about 2030 has caused the Luftwaffe to look instead at an already developed platform. As the official explained, “The timeframe suggests we need to start introducing successor in about 2025 to cover the Tornado retirement in 2030 – we need a five-year transition phase. That is only seven years away, and so it is very unlikely that industry could develop and introduce an entirely new aircraft type that fulfils the functionalities that we require. History show that the Eurofighter took 25 years before the first aircraft was introduced.” »

So the Germans are ready to buy the F-15, but not for a moment they think about the Rafale, and then we should do under their dictate an aircraft "Germano-French" to replace their Typhoon if I understood correctly.
I hope Macron is not going to make this idiocy to fulfill his dream of "Europe of Defense".
There is no Europe of defense, the Germans see only their interests.

[RetroSicotte]

I still find it perpetually strange that Germany, who wants more modern fighters, is not simply acquiring more of the fighter that they actually produce and want to see get more orders. The German Air Force cannot even keep its current aircraft in the sky, and somehow they think acquiring a 5th generation entirely separate aircraft is going to improve matters in expense?

It is staggeringly befuddling.

[abc123]

I still find it perpetually strange that Germany, who wants more modern fighters, is not simply acquiring more of the fighter that they actually produce and want to see get more orders. The German Air Force cannot even keep its current aircraft in the sky, and somehow they think acquiring a 5th generation entirely separate aircraft is going to improve matters in expense?

It is staggeringly befuddling.

Well not really if you think that Tante Angela want's to have good relations with Uncle Donald and make it look like reaching famed 2% of defence spending ( not to mention to spend it in the USA, buying greatest fighters in the world )...

[abc123]

I hope Macron is not going to make this idiocy to fulfill his dream of "Europe of Defense".
There is no Europe of defense, the Germans see only their interests.

Not Germans. Everybody.

[abc123]

Want more? Fork out the money. It is that simple.

Exactly. Everybody would like to have a new fighter, but paid by someone else's money, but produced in UK/France/Germany/etc.

[Defiance]

Not Germans. Everybody.

^^^^^ this.

EVERYONE is the awkward kid on the block to deal with if they have something to lose.