Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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Pseudo
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by Pseudo »

Defiance wrote:More than likely if they can't get onto a program reasonably then it'll be Typhoon enhancements.
Wouldn't that likely necessitate a tranche 3b?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by Defiance »

Pseudo wrote:
Defiance wrote:More than likely if they can't get onto a program reasonably then it'll be Typhoon enhancements.
Wouldn't that likely necessitate a tranche 3b?
Potentially, I know officially nobody's interested but if Tornado goes and they haven't managed to get on the right program on the right timeline, what else can they do apart from invest in Typhoon? They could extend Tornado out even further.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by Defiance »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Defiance wrote: it'll be Typhoon enhancements
The best is yet to come - there is such a Rusi write-up. Not that I have read it.
Is it this one? https://rusi.org/sites/default/files/wh ... ower_0.pdf

I'm hugely excited to see what future Typhoon will be able to do.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by Zealot »

Honestly would not be surprised if we were to see the Typhoons replaced by the F-35 A's. They're already 80 million dollars each, and seems to be constantly decreasing in price. They are also entering the final stages of development with British companies being heavily involved in said development.

By the time it comes down to replacing the Typhoons, the F-35 As will more than likely be the go to.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by marktigger »

Zealot wrote:Honestly would not be surprised if we were to see the Typhoons replaced by the F-35 A's. They're already 80 million dollars each, and seems to be constantly decreasing in price. They are also entering the final stages of development with British companies being heavily involved in said development.

By the time it comes down to replacing the Typhoons, the F-35 As will more than likely be the go to.
we already have the typhoon and its probably less costly to update them than buy new

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by Defiance »

Zealot wrote:Honestly would not be surprised if we were to see the Typhoons replaced by the F-35 A's. They're already 80 million dollars each, and seems to be constantly decreasing in price. They are also entering the final stages of development with British companies being heavily involved in said development.

By the time it comes down to replacing the Typhoons, the F-35 As will more than likely be the go to.
Thoughts on potential collaboration with the US on their next fighter program? It might not be too crazy to suggest that certain nations like the UK or Australia may be considered viable partners?

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Zealot
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

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marktigger wrote:
Zealot wrote:Honestly would not be surprised if we were to see the Typhoons replaced by the F-35 A's. They're already 80 million dollars each, and seems to be constantly decreasing in price. They are also entering the final stages of development with British companies being heavily involved in said development.

By the time it comes down to replacing the Typhoons, the F-35 As will more than likely be the go to.
we already have the typhoon and its probably less costly to update them than buy new
I was specifically talking about the replacements. But I do agree that they should be upgraded, we have only had them for 10 years after all.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

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Defiance wrote:
Zealot wrote:Honestly would not be surprised if we were to see the Typhoons replaced by the F-35 A's. They're already 80 million dollars each, and seems to be constantly decreasing in price. They are also entering the final stages of development with British companies being heavily involved in said development.

By the time it comes down to replacing the Typhoons, the F-35 As will more than likely be the go to.
Thoughts on potential collaboration with the US on their next fighter program? It might not be too crazy to suggest that certain nations like the UK or Australia may be considered viable partners?
The F-35 programme has been such a huge success, I would be shocked if the US went at it alone. The US has realized that it can get other countries to foot the bill while keeping all the technology too its self. America will more than likely include the same partners again, including the UK and Australia.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by bobp »

Don't like the idea of going down the F35A route except for replacing the Tornado. The Typhoons are still viable and considered to be one of the best aircraft around. Replacing the Typhoons with F35, will be like putting all ones eggs in the same basket.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by Defiance »

Zealot wrote: After the huge amount of success with the F-35 (despite the medias agenda) it wouldn't be a bad idea to include the same partners again, including the UK and Australia.
It'd be a conflation of requirements which'd be the decider. What the US needs and what Europe needs are becoming less directly compatible in the past, the US needs certain capabilities in extremis which are nice to have from a European perspective but not neccesarily critical (in a world of constrained budgets)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Zealot wrote:The US has realized that it can get other countries to foot the bill while keeping all the technology too its self. America will more than likely include the same partners again, including the UK and Australia.
- pretty good for starters (4th post?)
Defiance wrote: It'd be a conflation of requirements which'd be the decider
- have we not done a good enough of a job within the European league?
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

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The US has realized that it can get other countries to foot the bill while keeping all the technology too its self. America will more than likely include the same partners again, including the UK and Australia.
This is an obscene warping of reality. European partners all togerher have contributed the pathetic total of around 4 billion to development, on a bill of dozens of billions.
Without the US money, there would not be any major combat aircraft programme ongoing in Europe right now in the place of F-35, and certainly not a stealth one, because 4 billions would have never got it into motion. Never.
Don't like to depend on the US? Fork out more money. Reality hurts, but is merciless and always right.

Might i remember everyone that Europe is still struggling to progress with a far less impressive MALE unmanned aircraft development, and that the UK has given up on it altogether settling for Protector...?
How do you think it could have gotten an F-35 alternative into motion?
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Of course, the original statement only had an iota of truth in it... I was interested to see what would have come out next
Gabriele wrote:Don't like to depend on the US? Fork out more money. Reality hurts, but is merciless and always right.
- even Russia has found out that with a good design, great radars, ok missiles and passable engines, there still is not the complete supply chain in place to support a 5th gen prgrm (it will pull through but by when? At the time of the 1st flight of the 6th gen?)
Gabriele wrote:Europe is still struggling to progress with a far less impressive MALE unmanned aircraft development, and that the UK has given up on it altogether settling for Protector...?
- not sure the latter half of the statement is true, but I was quite surprised by the (high) number ordered. They are not cheap and they have limeted utility (not to mention versatility)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by Defiance »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: - have we not done a good enough of a job within the European league?
It depends what the US specifically wants the likes of PCA to do. They have a significant range problem which is different to what they've faced before for tactical fighter operations, they're going about it through looking at how they do AAR and how to make the fighter less dependent on it.

What they'd like is something like the F-22 but multiple times more endurance, likely something with reduced signature requirements and a fairly comprehensive EW capability, avionics upgrades yadda yadda yadda. To me that sounds like the dogs b*llocks of fighter capability and could easily be justified for RAF requirements (not neccesarily critical but preferable, we might decide being detectable at a longer range for a cheaper platform is acceptable for example, but it'd be better if that range was still reduced) moving forward, the question is would it be costed such that the UK could get involved at a level which still presents reasonable combat mass?

Bearing in mind this development activity will be happening next decade where Dreadnought is in full swing.

Just mixing up the pot a little, as an enthusiast i'd love it, just putting forward an alternate perspective for the discussion :)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

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European industry has fallen behind the cutting edge for producing new air-frames, at least the UK and France are working on some advanced demonstrators, which keeps us going at a small scale. The Turkish work is very small at this point, but again keeps us ticking over until we start a proper programme of our own.

Thankfully producing the F-35 is a big deal for the UK, bigger than typhoon.

The German next gen tornado ambitions are a non starter, there is no money for it. All the money in Europe is flowing over the Atlantic. The Americans have done a fantastic job of dismantling European industry, making it totally non competitive for this generation.

The UK has to work on the next generation it's self, industry needs it.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

shark bait wrote:The Turkish work is very small at this point
Yep. The render published in newspapers looked just like F-22. Then again, they might have taken just any old shape, to spice up the story.

If another comes out, we might restart the speculation why Replica was lifted back onto a pole.

Turkish and Israeli jets doing phantom dogfighting near Cyprus (they are both after the gas) may still play into the 100 F-35s that Turkey is supposedly getting.
- that would turbocharge this new project
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by Frenchie »

About France.

The format of the combat aviation defined in the defense white paper of 2013 amounts to 225 aircraft.

The Air Force needs the deliveries of the whole of the tranche 4, 60 aircraft in total. At the end of 2018, 32 units of the tranche 4 will have been delivered.

To date, deliveries of tranche 4 are expected to resume in 2021 and continue in 2022 and 2023.

To date, 180 Rafales have already been ordered, 146 of them delivered on 30 June 2016. In addition, it must take into account the withdrawal of the Mirage 2000D and 2000-5F throughout the 2020s, as well as that of the first Rafale commissioned in the early 2000s, due to premature aging generated by the many uses in OPEX. Finally, the arrival in 2030-2035 of armed drones in the air force will also condition the number of Rafale ordered.

All these data will therefore allow the adjustment of aircraft orders. Initial forecasts provided for the first deliveries of tranche 5 in 2022. They will be repelled in 2024 because of exports.

Tranche 5 must be notified within one year to reach the target of 225 combat aircraft. It will correspond with the entry into service of the standard F4.

The development of the Rafale standard F4 is due to be ordered in 2018. This new standard will include , communication with drones, an enhancement of the active antenna radar detection software, electronic countermeasures, the capacity to carry weapons will also be increased, so that the MICA successor can be installed, and the engine power increased from 7.5 to 9 tonnes of thrust. In 2017, the new government will decide on the notification of the standard F4. The objective is to have a fleet of which all aircraft would eventually have the same standard, which would facilitate both logistical support and pilot training.

The replacement of the Rafale will occur by 2035-2040. I do not know if that corresponds of the Future UK Combat Aircraft schedule for a joint aircraft between the United Kingdom and France.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Frenchie wrote:the capacity to carry weapons will also be increased, so that the MICA successor can be installed
Meteor, or something else (or both)?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by Frenchie »

Yes, Meteor and Mica in complement.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by abc123 »

Frenchie wrote:About France.

first deliveries of tranche 5 in 2022. They will be repelled in 2024 because of exports.

I really like Rafale, but I think that it make's no sence to build it after 2020. It's time for a proper 5th gen...
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

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abc123 wrote: I really like Rafale, but I think that it make's no sence to build it after 2020. It's time for a proper 5th gen...
"proper 5th gen" is rather meaningless.

The only thing that can't be retrofitted to a '4.5 gen' is stealth, so unless we are at the point where "stealth and nothing else will do", there is nothing wrong with advancing current models.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

shark bait wrote:there is nothing wrong with advancing current models
I believe the F-35 is in the process of getting radars in a band that is better equipped to deal with other stealth (5th gen) a/c
> will that make it 5plus gen?

And RUSI has a paper on Typhoon "The best is yet to come" - obviously the author is a Frank Sinatra fan
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by abc123 »

shark bait wrote:
abc123 wrote: I really like Rafale, but I think that it make's no sence to build it after 2020. It's time for a proper 5th gen...
"proper 5th gen" is rather meaningless.

The only thing that can't be retrofitted to a '4.5 gen' is stealth, so unless we are at the point where "stealth and nothing else will do", there is nothing wrong with advancing current models.

If so, why the UK is buying the F-35? Why not just build more Typhoons?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by shark bait »

Typhoons don't work on a carrier.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by abc123 »

shark bait wrote:Typhoons don't work on a carrier.

I know, but that's FAA, why not more Typhoons for the RAF?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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